New data on Iraq

alaskaguy · 10-01-2007, 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by cytech

I had the privilege of being able to talk to some Iraq war vets at a wedding this weekend, My cousin's who are both major's with the iowa national guard were there for almost 2 years each. Along with them and the other people I know who have returned from Iraq paint alot different picture then you see in the news.
Obviously there are plenty of bad things going on over there, but from my perspective, I think that is what the media thinks americans want to hear so that is what they report as opposed to the things which I hear from soldiers who have actually been fighting there.

I think that leaving before the Iraqi government can get a grasp on things will just make it so we have to go back again in another 10 years or so. Plus I think if we were to pull out now it would send a message to the islamic extremists that we are weak, and would likely lead to more terrorist attacks.

What makes you think that the Iraqi government will have a grasp on things within the next 10 years? The Iraqi government certainly hasn't accomplished much politically in the first five years.

What type of message do you think that the United States is sending by staying the course? I submit the current strategy emboldens terrorists more than a withdrawal would.

cytech · 10-01-2007, 07:54 PM

Honestly I am not sure if there are many current signs that show the Iraqi government can get a grasp on things. But I think that is needed in order for the US to pull out and deem it a success. I have no idea how to go about doing that. But I think that is where alot of diplomatic activities should be focused.

dmclone · 10-01-2007, 07:56 PM

One interesting thing that was said in this document was this.

This isn't at all like Vietnam. In Vietnam, we decided that we no longer wanted to fight so we left and the communist took over SEA. Suddenly the war was over.

We cannot do the same thing in Iraq. We can't just retreat and say "ok it's now over". This war won't end if we leave.

Kyle · 10-01-2007, 09:07 PM

Heres a link to a graph showing troop casualties by month. After seeing it I am not that impressed. Casualty rates have fluctuated throughout the war. This month doesn't look like anything special.
July 2007 - USATODAY.com

Cyphor · 10-01-2007, 09:23 PM

How about civilian casualties?

...that seems to be the real tragedy.

Cyclonepride · 10-01-2007, 10:58 PM

Originally Posted by frontrangeclone

I hope this happens, although this will be a reduction back to pre-surge levels of forces present in Iraq.

I want to pose the question to everyone and I'm not trying to slant it politically either way, I'm just curious as to how everyone thinks... how do the 08 elections impact our presence in Iraq? I'm not talking after who wins, but what happens between now and the first tuesday in Nov. 08. Will a withdrawal of troops help either side (dems or reps?) ? having the forces in Iraq in 2004 I think helped Bush b/c of the mantra of "not changing horses in mid stride" by that of course we all know is to not change leadership during war time. Does that help the GOP this time or would a troop withdrawal help them more? I would have to think if conflict of some sort began with Iran, they could use this strategy again.

That's a good question, but I sincerely hope that whatever is decided is not politically motivated. What really upsets me is that much of the debate between our politicians seems completely politically motivated, with almost reckless disregard for what is in the best interests of our country. I think the democrats were really, really hoping that they could force Bush into a major pullback so that they could hang everything on the republicans. I think progress in Iraq helps the republicans, and I think the closer we get to the election, the tougher this issue will be for democrats. Most of the ones who have a chance are starting to pull back from their strong stances because they know that if Bush doesn't get out, the responsibility for at least some of the post-withdrawal blood shed will be laid at their feet.

Cyclonepride · 10-01-2007, 11:01 PM

Originally Posted by dmclone

I was all for getting out of this war and then I read something that herbiedoobie sent me and it really set me straight. We really don't have any options except to stay at this point. If we leave now we will be back there in no time.

Hey Herbie.....I would love to see this also, or maybe a link would be good so everyone can.

Johnny Tremain · 10-02-2007, 12:43 AM

Originally Posted by dmclone

I was all for getting out of this war and then I read something that herbiedoobie sent me and it really set me straight. We really don't have any options except to stay at this point. If we leave now we will be back there in no time.

If what you read is that compelling, how about sharing that information with us. Or if you can just source it, I can look it up. Thanks.

Ooops, disregard. I now see that Cyclonepride made a similar request before me.

Johnny Tremain · 10-02-2007, 01:20 AM

Originally Posted by cytech

I had the privilege of being able to talk to some Iraq war vets at a wedding this weekend, My cousin's who are both major's with the iowa national guard were there for almost 2 years each. Along with them and the other people I know who have returned from Iraq paint alot different picture then you see in the news.
Obviously there are plenty of bad things going on over there, but from my perspective, I think that is what the media thinks americans want to hear so that is what they report as opposed to the things which I hear from soldiers who have actually been fighting there.

Periodically, someone will post that they know and have spoken to soldiers who have deployed to Iraq and purport that these soldiers have an entirely different view of what is going on Iraq than what is reported in the media.

Usually, except for some kind of an argument, that is all there is. No further details or facts are provided. Invariably, we are asked to accept a point of view based on faith. Maybe its just me, but I normally avoid having to base an opinion or a judgment principally on faith and heresay.

alaskaguy · 10-02-2007, 03:01 AM

Originally Posted by cytech

Honestly I am not sure if there are many current signs that show the Iraqi government can get a grasp on things. But I think that is needed in order for the US to pull out and deem it a success. I have no idea how to go about doing that. But I think that is where alot of diplomatic activities should be focused.

The Iraq war stands at the proverbial crossroads. The question is whether we continue the unpopular imposition, or admit defeat and fly our boys back home as quick as possible. Or is there still a middle ground?

It is my opinion, that although the war may have once been justified on the presumed existence of WMDs, these noble goals have long been abandoned in the prosecution of "The War on Terror."

Furthermore, it is my opinion that the War on Terror should not be about rebuilding countries. Since we already captured Saddam, murdered his sons, and have no hope to find the WMDs, we have ended any possible national threat and thus have no more legitimate governmental interest in Iraq. We should not be hanging around to seek an imposition of democracy that is neither desired, efficient, or beneficial for either country. The Iraqis already resent the American-led governmental creation. The War on Terror is supposed to pursue peace and stability, not facilitating the popular election of the very Islamofascists who wish to kill us.

Perhaps through years of peace and education, the sons and daughters of the current Iraqi insurgents will be more tolerant in their religious attitudes. Perhaps then, possibly hundreds of years from now, they will realize the benefits of a liberal republic and the secular system which has brought so much value to the United States. Until that day, however, it is foolish to force a democracy on the Iraqi citizens without the impact severely harming the United States.

CloneFan65 · 10-02-2007, 03:06 AM

Perhaps we should round up the illegal imigrants in our country, train them, and send them over to Iraq. This way we're not sending any more American troops to Iraq and the illegal imigrants have the opportunity to make a living wage. Everybody wins!

alaskaguy · 10-02-2007, 03:26 AM

Originally Posted by CloneFan65

Perhaps we should round up the illegal imigrants in our country, train them, and send them over to Iraq. This way we're not sending any more American troops to Iraq and the illegal imigrants have the opportunity to make a living wage. Everybody wins!

The number of illegal immigrants in this country is estimated to approach 12 million. That would be some surge.

cytech · 10-02-2007, 08:36 AM

Originally Posted by Johnny Tremain

Periodically, someone will post that they know and have spoken to soldiers who have deployed to Iraq and purport that these soldiers have an entirely different view of what is going on Iraq than what is reported in the media.

Usually, except for some kind of an argument, that is all there is. No further details or facts are provided. Invariably, we are asked to accept a point of view based on faith. Maybe its just me, but I normally avoid having to base an opinion or a judgment principally on faith and heresay.

When I get more time this evening I will happy to post some of what was discussed with me, but no matter what I say it will still be heresay to everyone else here, and I have no facts to provide anyone just what was told to me.

I will say this, that I have met one soldier though that I really hope most of our soldiers aren't like. A really sick minded guy I met a couple years ago in colorado in, colorado springs. This guy was back from his first tour and ready for his second. He was just a blood thirsty guy who took pictures he had to share with everyone of his spoils of war. The kinda guy that seems like he might turn into a serial killer when he gets back

But I will come back this evening and post some of what I heard from the people this weekend when I have a while to type.

Cyclonepride · 10-02-2007, 08:48 AM

Another interesting article.......little headline from msnbc. What interests me is that since there is not a lot of bad news out of Iraq lately, they write an article based on something that started to be seen in August of 2005. New bomb?

New bomb is unexpectedly lethal - Washington Post - MSNBC.com

Cyclonepride · 10-02-2007, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by Johnny Tremain

Periodically, someone will post that they know and have spoken to soldiers who have deployed to Iraq and purport that these soldiers have an entirely different view of what is going on Iraq than what is reported in the media.

Usually, except for some kind of an argument, that is all there is. No further details or facts are provided. Invariably, we are asked to accept a point of view based on faith. Maybe its just me, but I normally avoid having to base an opinion or a judgment principally on faith and heresay.

Yeah, kind of hard to prove that kind of a thing on a message board. I had two coworkers who went to Iraq with the Iowa National Guard, and a first cousin who served with the Marines in Falleujah (sp?). Since I am interested in this sort of thing, I made it a point to get their personal views. Each of them felt that our mission there was critical, that progress was being made, and that the media coverage was not grounded in reality. Cooperation between US troops and Iraqis is much better than reported. The overall situation is less chaotic than reported. Not only did they disagree with the media depictions, it angered them to a large degree. My cousin was interviewed by a reporter, and she got angry with him for the way he was answering her questions. He said she was obviously fishing for negative quotes with very leading questions. Take it for what it is worth, but I personally know and trust these people, and if they said differently, I would have a whole different view on the war.