Interesting hidden taxes article

Cyclonepride · 11-09-2007, 12:02 PM

Hidden taxes you pay every day - MSN Money

They complain about hidden taxes on items that are imported, but say very little in regards to the federal taxes that are already embedded in American goods to the tune of 21% of the cost of each product. Instead, they want to compound this problem with a value added tax, making American made goods even less profitable, eventually forcing even more overseas. Value added taxes are great if you want to hide them. Great plan.

How about the Fair Tax? The playing field would be levelled for US and foreign goods, and the tax rate would be known by everyone. I just got done reading The Fairtax book, and I am a more ardent supporter than ever that it should be implemented AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

alaskaguy · 11-09-2007, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by Cyclonepride

Hidden taxes you pay every day - MSN Money

They complain about hidden taxes on items that are imported, but say very little in regards to the federal taxes that are already embedded in American goods to the tune of 21% of the cost of each product. Instead, they want to compound this problem with a value added tax, making American made goods even less profitable, eventually forcing even more overseas. Value added taxes are great if you want to hide them. Great plan.

How about the Fair Tax? The playing field would be levelled for US and foreign goods, and the tax rate would be known by everyone. I just got done reading The Fairtax book, and I am a more ardent supporter than ever that it should be implemented AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

Do you have any idea what percentage of the electorate supports the Fair-Tax?

The Fair-Tax appears to have some partisan support. However, most Democrats avoid the measure like the plague.

There isn't even a common perception between Democrats and Republicans as to what constitutes a fair tax system. Democrats, by a 53% to 34% margin, say that a fair tax system would have higher income Americans paying a higher percentage of their income in taxes. Republicans, by a 66% to 25% margin, say that a fair tax system would have everyone paying the same percentage of their income in taxes.

Link:
Rasmussen Reports™: The most comprehensive public opinion coverage ever provided for a mid-term election.

Cyclonepride · 11-09-2007, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by alaskaguy

Do you have any idea what percentage of the electorate supports the Fair-Tax?

The Fair-Tax appears to have some partisan support. However, most Democrats avoid the measure like the plague.

There isn't even a common perception between Democrats and Republicans as to what constitutes a fair tax system. Democrats, by a 53% to 34% margin, say that a fair tax system would have higher income Americans paying a higher percentage of their income in taxes. Republicans, by a 66% to 25% margin, say that a fair tax system would have everyone paying the same percentage of their income in taxes.

Link:
Rasmussen Reports™: The most comprehensive public opinion coverage ever provided for a mid-term election.

I don't know the percentages for certain. It would be interesting to find out.

There are only two reasons I can think of that keep Democrats from supporting the Fair Tax:

1. They want to take from the productive people to give to the unproductive. (true)

2. They do not want to give up their ability to sell tax deductions for political support. (true)

It is a total misconception that this plan favors the rich. The people I know that could be considered wealthy hate the Fair Tax, because they can deduct their way out of paying taxes, and add to their net wealth in the process.

Also, if you are making minimum wage, the money taken out of your paycheck for taxes and social security would be a critical addition to your ability to save. Since the Fair Tax is rebated up to the poverty level, they would no longer have to pay anything for social security and medicare. ZERO.

Cyclonepride · 11-09-2007, 01:00 PM

Here's a poll I found, non-scientific of course, from About.com: Economics. They do a nice write up on the Fair Tax, but their analysis is misleading in places.

About Poll
Should the United States adopt the FairTax proposal?Yes (9221) 91%

No (824) 8%

jbhtexas · 11-09-2007, 01:36 PM

I wish we would adopt it. Then, after 10 years (if that long) of economic havoc and upheaval, that methodology of taxation would be relegated to the scrap heap and we'd never have to discuss it again...

alaskaguy · 11-09-2007, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by Cyclonepride

Here's a poll I found, non-scientific of course, from About.com: Economics. They do a nice write up on the Fair Tax, but their analysis is misleading in places.

About Poll
Should the United States adopt the FairTax proposal?Yes (9221) 91%No (824) 8%

I couldn't locate the poll you referenced.

Most people have little to no awareness of the Fair Tax proposal (personal observation).

The national polling companies (Gallup, Rasmussen, etc.) have surveyed the electorate on potential changes to the current federal income tax system. However, I can not find any reference polling public support for the Fair Tax proposal.

Very few Democratic politicians favor adopting the Fair Tax legislation. Apparently the perception among Democrats is that the measure would have a regressive impact? Why do you think so few Democrats are endorsing the Fair Tax proposal?

bawbie · 11-09-2007, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by alaskaguy

I couldn't locate the poll you referenced.

Most people have little to no awareness of the Fair Tax proposal (personal observation).

The national polling companies (Gallup, Rasmussen, etc.) have surveyed the electorate on potential changes to the current federal income tax system. However, I can not find any reference polling public support for the Fair Tax proposal.

Very few Democratic politicians favor adopting the Fair Tax legislation. Apparently the perception among Democrats is that the measure would have a regressive impact? Why do you think so few Democrats are endorsing the Fair Tax proposal?

By definition it is a regressive tax, and by definition most Democrats are for a progressive income tax.

I'd say that's the major reason why Dems won't support it.

TykeClone · 11-09-2007, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by bawbie

By definition it is a regressive tax, and by definition most Democrats are for a progressive income tax.

I'd say that's the major reason why Dems won't support it.

One of the major tenets of the FAIR tax is the "prebate" equal to what the tax would be at the poverty level. This ratio of the prebate to income is much greater for low income earners than it is for high income earners - so it _is_ progressive and shouldn't be an issue.

The Dems won't support it for the same reason that they won't get rid of the AMT - they just can't part with the power.

bawbie · 11-09-2007, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by TykeClone

One of the major tenets of the FAIR tax is the "prebate" equal to what the tax would be at the poverty level. This ratio of the prebate to income is much greater for low income earners than it is for high income earners - so it _is_ progressive and shouldn't be an issue.

The Dems won't support it for the same reason that they won't get rid of the AMT - they just can't part with the power.

Except that the lower income folks spend a far higher percentage of their income than high income people do.

Since it's a sales tax, income doesn't have a lot to do with it, you are taxed on how much you spend. Sales taxes are inherently regressive taxes.

Just out of curiosity, how would one apply for the "prebate" and with no IRS, who administers it?

bawbie · 11-09-2007, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by TykeClone

The Dems won't support it for the same reason that they won't get rid of the AMT - they just can't part with the power.

I didn't see the GOP do anything about the AMT when they were in power and slashing taxes left and right. They could have easily fixed the AMT.

The Dems are going to do something about it. Actually Sen Grassley is working the Dem Chairman of the Finance Committee on repealing the AMT.

Cyclonepride · 11-09-2007, 03:02 PM

Here is a link to a Fairtax article on About.com. There are also several other stories that do not favor the Fairtax. You can also click on my banner if you would like. On a related note, it is my firm belief that progressive taxes violate our constitutional right to equal protection under the law.

FairTax - The Advocates Strike Back

TykeClone · 11-09-2007, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by bawbie

I didn't see the GOP do anything about the AMT when they were in power and slashing taxes left and right. They could have easily fixed the AMT.

The Dems are going to do something about it. Actually Sen Grassley is working the Dem Chairman of the Finance Committee on repealing the AMT.

Both should. It's a travesty that the AMT is affecting people of average income. The reason that the Republicans didn't do anything is that they couldn't get AMT reform through the Senate when they had the 1 vote margin (or past the President when Clinton was in office).

The AMT: there's no quick fix - Jul. 21, 2005 - this is from before the Democrats took control of the Congress so both sides certainly are to blame.

alaskaguy · 11-09-2007, 03:03 PM

The Fair Tax claims to be revenue neutral.

When Fair Tax is compared to the present income tax, lower income individuals appear to benefit.

The tradeoff for middle and upper income households is less clear.

The Fair Tax proponents contend that it would be a more pro-growth tax system than the current federal tax system. This position is intriguing and deserves as much discussion as does the politics of income class distribution (my opinion).

Cyclonepride · 11-09-2007, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by bawbie

Except that the lower income folks spend a far higher percentage of their income than high income people do.

Since it's a sales tax, income doesn't have a lot to do with it, you are taxed on how much you spend. Sales taxes are inherently regressive taxes.

Just out of curiosity, how would one apply for the "prebate" and with no IRS, who administers it?

The prebate is automatically given to everyone. That way, noone pays any taxes on spending up to the poverty line. If you are making $250 a week at your job, right now you would take home maybe $170-$180 after income, social security and medicare is taken out. Under the Fairtax, not only would you take home the full $250, you would also get a check in the mail every month for the prebate. This effectively makes social security and medicare completely free, and poor people wouldn't have to wait until the end of the year to get their money back.

TykeClone · 11-09-2007, 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by bawbie

Except that the lower income folks spend a far higher percentage of their income than high income people do.

Since it's a sales tax, income doesn't have a lot to do with it, you are taxed on how much you spend. Sales taxes are inherently regressive taxes.

Just out of curiosity, how would one apply for the "prebate" and with no IRS, who administers it?

What low income earners spend of their income doesn't matter as they are getting a prebate for the entire amount of taxes that would be collected up to the poverty level. If the spend less they keep the difference.

What high income earners spend of their income doesn't matter as they are getting a prebate for the entire amount of taxes that would be collected up to the poverty level. If they spend less they keep the difference.

Since low income earners by necessity spend less (and therefore will pay fewer taxes) than high income earners, and since the prebate will prepay a portion - most of what will eventually be collected for low income earners - the taxes are progressive.

Presumably (and just my guess), the prebate would be handled through a successor to the IRS. Each family would need to submit something that would resemble a 1040EZ listing the members of the family. That is all the information that is needed to compute a prebate.