The Hockey Debate

[puckwarrior]

Unfortunately, many of the fringe fans of hockey in Iowa enjoy the fighting involved with the game. Having a son who played both Junior A and D1 hockey out east, he felt the excitment of the crowds was much stronger in the Junior A league due to the fighting. A true diehard hockey fan could care less about the fighting, but average Joe who goes to 4 games a year loves to see the fights. Just like a wreck at NASCAR. I don't think we have enough passionate hockey fans to support the college game.

[jbhtexas]

The Pros:
[...]
-Makes Iowa State unique to the rest of the Big IX.
[...]
So what do you think? All comments are greatly appreciated! Thanks.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "the Big IX" (9), but in any case...

Take a look at ADJP's "Taking the Next Big Step" document. The two top benchmarking goals are to improve ISU's competiveness in the Big 12. The top benchmarking goal is to win more Big 12 titles. Hockey is not a Big 12 sport, and is not going to help ISU win more Big 12 titles, and thus, hockey does not contribute to the stated highest-priority goals of the Athletic department.

I wouldn't want to add hockey if there is any chance that it would detract from or jeopardize the three very good winter sports that ISU already has: MBB, WBB, and WR. WGYM is kind of a winter/spring sport, and ISU is now very good at that too.

The only reason I can see to add hockey would be if it could be a money maker. That issue seems to be up for debate here.

My feeling is that if ISU adds any sporting activities back, those activities will be Big 12 sports, like baseball or men's tennis. Personally, I'd prefer to add spring activites.

[jtd9046]

I also think Al Murdoch would be an outstanding Program Director for an ISU DI team. It would be a mistake to underestimate his knowledge of the college game or his vast connections. I know the Hockey Program Director at Arizona State, who played on a National Championship team at North Dakota State and he said Murdoch is one of the best in the country.

Just curious to know why Murdoch is still coaching in a club program if he is as respected as some make it sound? There are many programs directly north of Ames that are always looking to improve recruiting (ie MN St. Mankato, St. Cloud St.).

Also, the Ames/ISU arena is average but isn't anything special. Many high school and younger programs in MN have much better facilities.

[CycloneHockey]

Sorry about that typo earlier...but I think that making us unique to the Big XII is important, because hockey has been proven to be a money MAKER in college hockey. The program you could probably compare us to most is Miami in Ohio, after UNO. Oxford, OH was not a big time hockey town, but now they are selling out games and are a top 5 program. They just were able to add on to their arena. Hockey has only lost money at a handful of schools. Most hockey programs die not because of money, but because of extenuating circumstances.

The team that I watched growing up was University of Illinois at Chicago. They had a mediocre team, but big attendance draws and they cancelled the program because Jimmy Collins, the BBall coach said he would not work there if he had to share an arena with hockey. Other than that, in recent years the only program to struggle was Findlay. And who's ever heard of them.

On the Murdoch issue. He never left ISU because he is a professor here, loves Ames and has invested his entire life in this program. He has gone before the Athletics Board to make this happen three times, the last being 7 years ago and the team didn't make the cut to make the jump by the slimmest of margins. His goal is to make this program NCAA D1. That's why he's still here, nearly 40 years later.

The rink is in no way ready for NCAA, but it has the ability to be added on to and expanded. It may not happen, but its at least possible. Minnesota is the state of hockey, so you're right. Their high schools have better rinks than that. But for Ames, Iowa, that's not too shabby.

Obviously the rest of our athletics have to improve before we do this. But with pollard at the helm making changes and doing what is necessary for us to get better, things are going to happen. Iowa State is on a great path to future success. So it might not be as far off as you think.

[jbhtexas]

Sorry about that typo earlier...but I think that making us unique to the Big XII is important, because hockey has been proven to be a money MAKER in college hockey.

The latest financial report on NCAA.com, shown at the link below, covers the 2003 fiscal year. It's a little old, but it is the best they have right now. I've pulled some numbers from that report (Table 3.29 ff) for hockey. These figures are average revenue and expenditure $$$ per school in thousands. Since all of Division I is grouped together for hockey, I have provided a weighted average for the three Div I classifications.

 	rev$ 	exp$ 	respondents
I-A 	1522 	1169 	12
I-AA 	936 	781 	10
I-AAA 	1101 	1288 	6
			
ave 	1222 	1055

Based on those numbers, I would say that hockey is certainly not a guaranteed money maker. Based on the averages, revenue is only slightly exceeding expenses. We know that a few certain schools (like UMinn) generate several million in revenue from hockey, so there must be a significant number of schools with low revenue that are pulling the revenue average down to where it is only slightly larger than expenses.

For reference, some average 2003 Div IA numbers for other sports:

sport 	rev$ 	exp$ 	respondents
FB 	12969 	7046	115
MBB 	4252 	2227 	116
WBB 	506 	1279 	115
BSB 	367 	760 	102
WR 	164 	460 	42

The number of hockey respondents is rather low. I think there are about 60 Div I hockey teams. The response for FB and MBB is much better, so I don't know what's going on there. The low response could be skewing the hockey numbers.

So, after all of this, what's my point??? I believe using the argument that hockey will generate positive revenue as a supporting argument for the addition of hockey as a varsity sport is tenuous at best.

The other interesting thing that I found in the report is that hockey is the third most expensive men's sport.

Link to NCAA financial report

[jtd9046]

The other interesting thing that I found in the report is that hockey is the third most expensive men's sport.

Good info. Hockey is one of if not the most expensive sport to play... from 5 year olds on up. From the equipment on up to reserving ice time/costs to maintain ice, hockey is pricey. I knew many friends growing up in MN that didn't play hockey because of the costs involved.

[CycloneHockey]

Excellent stuff there. I am pretty impressed with the research. While hockey is not a sure fire money maker, at bigger schools it has an impact. Minn spends a ton on hockey, but thats because they sell out every game. Most D1 schools that have other athletics have huge box office numbers for hockey.

A lot of D1 hockey schools are DII or DIII in everything else. I think big schools + D1 hockey makes for some good things. Notre Dame spends very little on hockey, yet they have decent box office draws and the #3 team in the nation. It doesn't necessarily cost as much as other sports to put a good team out there as far as scholarship money goes.

But yet, equipment and travel expenses could pile up. I just haven't found the numbers yet on those averages. So I'll be working on that next. Thanks for all of the good spirited conversations here. I'm really impressed.

[puckwarrior]

Equipment many times is provided at no charge or a very reasonable charge as part of the sponsorship from the equipment companies. The biggest costs will be scholarships, 20 is the number they can give out I think, salaries for coaches, 3 to 4 people, Travel costs, and ice time. Their were 14 teams in Division 1 hockey last year that averaged over 5000 per home game. 22 teams averaged less than 2000 per home game. If we had a facility that could hold 2500 people that would bring in around $25,000 per game in ticket revenue for a sellout. Many programs charge less then $15 for an adult ticket. Students are very low cost tickets. So I gave an average of $10 per ticket. If you have 15 home dates that will give you $375,000 revenue. The worst part about sponsorhip money is, how much of it would be new money and how much would have to be diverted from another program. Most businesses I work with have a set pool of dollars every year they spend on that. So I think it would be hard for ISU to increase total giving just because they add another sport. They most likely would have people give less to the other sports and pay some of the previous contribution towards hockey. Lastly we would most likely also have to add women's hockey for title IX purposes. They would have many of the same costs. Coaches salaries would be lower, but travel and schlorship would be the same. Unfortunately, it would probably be tough to draw 1000 people to that game. That will be a huge loss for the athletic department to have to absorb. I just don't see it every happening unless we have twice as many dollars in the athletic department budget.

[cybsball20]

The twenty scholarships will be more of a sticking point than anything else, especially when you can add two sports; baseball (11.7) and Tennis (4).

[CycloneHockey]

Would anyone go to watch Tennis? It's a great sport, but it just isn't a draw in college. I love baseball it is my second favorite sport to watch and i play every summer. I just think hockey is gonna put more people's buts in the seats and bring a little extra cash flow. I think we'd have people travel from all over Iowa to see ISU take on UNO, Minnesota, Notre Dame, Michigan, Wisconsin and all of those schools. Heck we'd even have a lot of visiting fans from MN who are going to be happy not to take the trip to Denver or Alaska-Anchorage.

I still feel that hockey would be successful both in the win column and in the box office. I would love to see this happen here, not just because I am a hockey fan, but because I am a fan of seeing Iowa State be able to start a new tradition and be successful. While there are no guarantees, Iowa State would have one heck of a shot.

[jdoggivjc]

I think equipment might not be QUITE as expensive as everyone wants to make it. Remember, ISU has a contract w/ Nike. That would mean our jerseys would be made by them. But Nike is affiliated with Bauer, so skates, sticks, breezers, and the rest of the equipment may come at discount to the university.

[mramseyISU]

There's the outdoor practice track and I think there used to be a couple beat-up tennis courts, but they may have eliminated those.

I'm jumping in on this a little late but those tennis courts have been more or less given to the paintball team for a practice/tournament field. Not that it has anything to do with Hockey but I just thought I'd throw it out there since I ran the paintball team for 4 years. You want to talk about an exspensive sport if the athletic department wanted to fund it. $2500 worth of gear for 15 guys and it'd probably run them $1000 in paint to run a practice.

Oh and I love going to ISU hockey games. I wish I could make it to more than I do.

[Tulsa Cyclone]

In regards to Illinois: They are the #1 team in the nation right now and won the national title just a few years ago. They have become one of "The Big Three" in the ACHA: PSU, ISU, and U of I.

In regards to the Bucs as a competitor for attendance: If anything, that helps ISU's chances of better attendance. Sounds strange, but the reason is that ISU will be able to bring in those quality USHL players from the Buccaneers, Rough Riders, Black Hawks, Muskateers and so on. People will have a chance to see their favorite USHL players right here in Iowa instead of on the East Coast or the other big schools in the Great Lakes/Midwest area.

Finances: I have done the research and hockey would be well behind Men's and Women's basketball in operating costs. This according to a study done by the Department of Education on Sports equity. Now at a school like Minnesota, where hockey is god...Hockey is #2 on the money spent.

I'm not sure that the Bucs are losing money either, but even so, they have an entirely different budget structure. The only similarities between running a junior hockey team and a college hockey team are the players.

Just to draw some comparison. Nebraska-Omaha's Hockey team out draws both the Omaha Ak-Sar-Ben Knights (AHL) and the Omaha Lancers (USHL) in attendance on many nights. I have a feeling if you get enough people to the rink that first year, many will keep coming back. NCAA College Hockey is among the most exciting sports to see live.

One of the most insane athletic contests I have ever seen was a Minnesota vs. Wisconsin Men's hockey in the Mariucci Center. Rabid fans. Scary rabid fans.

[CycloneHockey]

The "Border Battle" is an amazing rivalry and is as good as it gets in College hockey. You might find Boston U vs. Boston College a close second. I will take NCAA hockey over every single sport to watch live. The passion, the talent, just amazing.

But I'll tell you what, the way our guys are playing right now, the ACHA is some crazy good hockey right now. We play Western Michigan next week at home, so its going to be an insane battle. Then we head to Illinois for what is considered the best rivalry in the ACHA. If you're in the Champaign area, I encourage you to make it out in 2 weeks. Their fans are insane, so we'll need some ISU support!

[Topshelf]

Wow! Great topic. I've just recently joined but want to let you know that I am one of the biggest ISU hockey fans, if not the biggest. I think ISU hockey has a great chance of going DI after Pollard takes care of the plans he has in place at this time. Thanks "CycloneHockey" for the updates. Keep them coming. Are you the same guy that does the play by play? If so, you do a wonderful job.