Tim Floyd

**cyclonenum1** · 03-24-2007, 08:15 PM

Wow...some great posts today on this topic! But nothing to make me change my mind...Johnny is the best coach ever at ISU...period!

As Darts said, you must remember the context of Johnny's hiring. When Johnny came to ISU he came from a Michigan program that had just been in the National Championship game 4 years earlier. His Michigan program was a perennial top 20 program that produced numerous NBA players. When he came to ISU we were a Big 8 doormat. Hilton Coliseum resembled a morgue on game days!

Johnny instantly breathed life into our program and our fans. Our attendance, our success on the court, and our success in recruiting all picked up dramatically with Johnny. As a previous post said, there was nothing like seeing Johnny enter the court at Hilton when we were playing a traditional power or a top-ranked team. The Pep Band would strike up The Tonight Show theme and Johnny would amble by the scorer's table with fists-a-pumpin' on his way to shake the hand of the opposing coach...and the loudest cheer of the day would blow the roof off of Hilton with the game still minutes from starting!

There is absolutely no comparison between Johnny and Dan McCarney. Dan did not do for football what Johnny did for basketball! McCarney's winning percentage is nearly the same as his predecessors...Johnny's is much better. Average attendance at ISU football was actually less under McCarney than it was under his predecessors. Look at attendance pre-Orr and during his tenure and you will see "Hilton Magic"!

Orr's up-tempo style and the emotion of the home crowd were a tremendous combination...we almost always won when we played in Hilton under Johnny and we were often a tough out at Hilton South (aka Kemper Arena in early March for the Big 8 Tournament). Yes, our style of play made it tough for us on the road but the old Big 8 was a pretty tough (and deep) basketball conference...only Colorado and Nebraska were typically lame...everyone else usually had a good team...hell, KU played OU for the National Championship in 1988!

Floyd is a fine coach but I do not understand why he is worshipped so much by some ISU fans...the program was in better shape when he came to Ames than when he left. Orr deserves reverence because he totally transformed our basketball program! The one thing that I will give Floyd great credit for is Marcus Fizer...our lone McDonald's HSAA. It would have been interesting to see what Floyd would have done had he not jumped ship after a 12-18 fourth year. By the way, I was in San Antonio 10 years ago to see us lose a game to UCLA that we should have won in the sweet 16 under Floyd (somewhat similar to what NC did to his USC team last night).

Eustachy is also a fine coach. Clearly, he was at the helm of the ship when we had our two most successful seasons in school history from a win / loss perspective and I will give him great credit for that...but he was doing that with someone else's players (mostly, I mean Fizer here)...kind of like the success Davis had initially at Iowa with Raveling's players. His last few years with his own players were not too good as I recall. I personally did not like how he berated his players. I was at an ISU / UT game in Austin where he called a time out and sprinted out to center court to grab one of our players by the jersey. He then spent the entire time out chewing on this player's butt right on the center circle of the court at the Erwin Center. This incident as well as his total melt down at the end of the Regional Final against Michigan State should have been signs that this guy had problems. I still recall an article I read about Eustachy's driving to all of the away games and not flying with the team...purportedly because of a fear of flying. The sad reality was that this guy was hiding his alcoholism.

The bottom line is that Johnny deserves to have the court in Hilton named after him...could you say the same for Floyd or Eustachy?

**Cyclone62** · 03-24-2007, 08:20 PM

Originally Posted by cyclone#1

The bottom line is that Johnny deserves to have the court in Hilton named after him...could you say the same for Floyd or Eustachy?

Whenever I go to a house party, I dedicate my debauchery to LE. It seems like he earned that kind of dedication.

Oh, and if I'm about to go home with a girl, and then drop the ball towards the end of the night, I always tell people that I just pulled a Eustachy. (homage to Mich. State game.)

**cyclonenum1** · 03-24-2007, 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by Cyclone62

Whenever I go to a house party, I dedicate my debauchery to LE. It seems like he earned that kind of dedication.

Oh, and if I'm about to go home with a girl, and then drop the ball towards the end of the night, I always tell people that I just pulled a Eustachy. (homage to Mich. State game.)

Classic! Positive rep is on the way for you, my friend! I trust your debauchery always includes Natural Light in honor of LE!

**acody** · 03-24-2007, 08:48 PM

LE was the best at totally disgracing ISU. LE was a low class coach who benefited from Marcus Fizer. His final two years after the championship years were an embarrassment to Iowa State. He could not recruit after Floyd's players left.

**acody** · 03-24-2007, 08:54 PM

Take off your rose colored Johnny Orr glasses. Johnny Orr was the most popular ISU coach not the best coach. Johnny Orr's record was pathetic in the Big 8 conference and even worse as a road conference coach. Check the record!!

**ajjohnson** · 03-24-2007, 09:01 PM

Originally Posted by acody

LE was the best at totally disgracing ISU. LE was a low class coach who benefited from Marcus Fizer. His final two years after the championship years were an embarrassment to Iowa State. He could not recruit after Floyd's players left.

He won a title without Marcus Fizer almost entirely with his own players! Are you a hawk fan poser or something? Why aren't you embarassed by Floyd going 12-18 his last year and his can't get out of Ames fast enough attitude?

**ajjohnson** · 03-24-2007, 09:03 PM

Originally Posted by acody

Take off your rose colored Johnny Orr glasses. Johnny Orr was the most popular ISU coach not the best coach. Johnny Orr's record was pathetic in the Big 8 conference and even worse as a road conference coach. Check the record!!

Take off your rose colored Tim Floyd glasses. His first year he went 6-8 in conference with TWO NBA PLAYERS and Julius Michalik. He doesn't even have a winning career conference record at Iowa State. CHECK THE RECORD!

**tigershoops31** · 03-24-2007, 09:35 PM

Originally Posted by ajjohnson

He won a title without Marcus Fizer almost entirely with his own players! Are you a hawk fan poser or something? Why aren't you embarassed by Floyd going 12-18 his last year and his can't get out of Ames fast enough attitude?

Exactly...I don't know why everybody bashes on Eustachy's accomplishments and writes them off saying that it was all because he got Fizer from Floyd. That second year they overachieved as much as the first and WITHOUT Fizer. It's especially maddening since it's not like Floyd's team did anything the only year he was here with Fizer, Rancik, and Shirley. It would be nearly the same if we won the Big 12 next year and Clark and Marsden were first teamers. I for one would be giving the credit for our conference title to Coach Mac for coaching and developing the championship team rather than writing off the accomplishment as being all due to Morgan bringing in the horses. Any new coach is going to have some players in place when he comes in. Accomplishments 2 and 3 years down the road should be their own, not because somebody else was the coach when these guys signed their LOI's.

* I don't want to come across as being down on Floyd, cause I loved him as a coach and hope that he wins them all at USC, but I get frustrated when people discredit all that LE did because of how his tenure here ended. I doubt at the time of the back to back Big 12 Title years that there were many (if any) of you that were saying Eustachy wasn't an amazing coach.

**ajjohnson** · 03-24-2007, 10:27 PM

Originally Posted by tigershoops31

Exactly...I don't know why everybody bashes on Eustachy's accomplishments and writes them off saying that it was all because he got Fizer from Floyd. That second year they overachieved as much as the first and WITHOUT Fizer. It's especially maddening since it's not like Floyd's team did anything the only year he was here with Fizer, Rancik, and Shirley. It would be nearly the same if we won the Big 12 next year and Clark and Marsden were first teamers. I for one would be giving the credit for our conference title to Coach Mac for coaching and developing the championship team rather than writing off the accomplishment as being all due to Morgan bringing in the horses. Any new coach is going to have some players in place when he comes in. Accomplishments 2 and 3 years down the road should be their own, not because somebody else was the coach when these guys signed their LOI's.

* I don't want to come across as being down on Floyd, cause I loved him as a coach and hope that he wins them all at USC, but I get frustrated when people discredit all that LE did because of how his tenure here ended. I doubt at the time of the back to back Big 12 Title years that there were many (if any) of you that were saying Eustachy wasn't an amazing coach.

Well put! Great comparison as well, Floyds last year and Larrys first the teams record was 27-33. Waynes last and McDermotts first we are 31-30. If Greg goes 57-11 the next two years like Larry did we all know it will be because of Wayne!

I actually love Floyd as well and will root for him to win every game he doesn't play ISU, but hearing this ignorant tired argument over and over again that LE only won because of Floyd can send me over the edge!

**darts180** · 03-24-2007, 10:28 PM

Originally Posted by ajjohnson

Pratt, Bankhead, and Cato worked out and Ernest Brown, and Jerome Harper didn't. Is that great coaching or luck? And once again, if you want to rip Larry's final two years what about Floyd going 12-18? He knew he was losing that whole team for two full seasons and was able to bring in Fizer (because of a family connection) and not much else, this is why I don't think he was building a pipeline at all. Look at the second conference championship team, only Shirley and Rancik were left, they did contribute but weren't anything special, that team greatly overacheived and it would be crazy to not give the full credit to Larry's coaching. Why didn't Floyd win a title, I think you could easily argue his team below had comparable talent.

Tinsley
Horton
Sullivan
Rancik
Shirley
25-6 (13-3) in conference)

Hollaway
Willoughby
Pratt
Bankhead
Cato
24-9 (9-5) 1995-1996
22-9 (10-6) 1996-1997

I would contend if he was the better coach this team wouldn't have had a WORSE record their second full season playing together, and would have won a title in the 2 chances it had to do so. Larry was 42-38 in conference and Floyd was 25-25. And once again Larry inherited a team that was terrible and pretty much only had Fizer as a sophomore and Floyd got a good first year team with seniors Loren Meyer, Michalik and Hoiberg. If he is a better coach why did that team go 6-8 in conference with two NBA draft picks and a very good player in Michalik?

We aren't disagreeing as much as you think we are. But, those two Floyd teams had a roadblock that Larry never had to deal with, GREAT KANSAS TEAMS. Each of those two years, they were one seeds. The second, when they lost to Arizona, they were the best team in the country.

As far as conference records go, Larry won 27 of 42 games in two years. That means that he was 15-33 other than those three years, and he went 6-10 his first season. So after he won two conference titles he went 9-23.

Floyd's first season was very up and down. That team had to change everything that they did in a season. They went from Johnny's high post offense to Tim's motion offense. They had a big change in defensive intensity. They were 17-3, and fell apart. But the thing is that Tim rallied the seniors after losing to Okie State on senior night (can you imagine that Fred Hoiberg lost his last game at Hilton). They won at Nebraska, then with Tim getting kicked out of the game in the first half they came back from a double digit deficit (spell that three times fast), and beat Mizzu, and KU the next day.

And in terms of records for the 2nd and 3rd teams, you have to remember that Dedric missed some games in the conference with a bad hamstring.

Again, I am not disputing that Larry did a great job, he brought the biggest highs in Iowa State basketball history. I just think that Tim was, and is, more prepared for long term success. He could have gone juco crazy after the Cato group, but I think that he was looking long term, and recruited mostly high school players (and CJ Bruton, but we won't get into that). After 12-18, he would have won more than 15 the next year, for the same reason Johnny would have won more his first year, the players would have been more familiar with his system, than they were with Larry's. Plus he wouldn't have had to go through all of Fizer's pouting.

**tigershoops31** · 03-24-2007, 10:42 PM

Originally Posted by darts180

We aren't disagreeing as much as you think we are. But, those two Floyd teams had a roadblock that Larry never had to deal with, GREAT KANSAS TEAMS. Each of those two years, they were one seeds. The second, when they lost to Arizona, they were the best team in the country.

I would agree with most of your post. However, I disagree that Larry didn't have to go through great KU teams during his 2 year run. Both of those KU teams were top 5 in the AP poll at least part of the year, and the 2000-2001 Jayhawks were as high as #2. They might not have gotten all of the usual KU hype because we owned them for those two years, but they were still outstanding teams. In addition, we had some pretty darn good OU, Texas, OSU, and Mizzou teams to compete with during that span. I would argue that the competition was as strong in the Big 12 during those years as it ever has been. What we were able to do during that 2 year run was nothing short of incredible.

**darts180** · 03-24-2007, 10:47 PM

Originally Posted by tigershoops31

I would agree with most of your post. However, I disagree that Larry didn't have to go through great KU teams during his 2 year run. Both of those KU teams were top 5 in the AP poll at least part of the year, and the 2000-2001 Jayhawks were as high as #2. They might not have gotten all of the usual KU hype because we owned them for those two years, but they were still outstanding teams. In addition, we had some pretty darn good OU, Texas, OSU, and Mizzou teams to compete with during that span. I would argue that the competition was as strong in the Big 12 during those years as it ever has been. What we were able to do during that 2 year run was nothing short of incredible.

Actually, you are right. It was the late 90's, after the LaFrentz, and Pierce teams they went through a slight lull. I think they were 4-5 in 2000, behind OSU, and UT, and I think that they were 2-3 in '01, UT.

But those 95-97 KU teams should have won at least one national championship, they were LOADED.

**cyclonenum1** · 03-25-2007, 07:45 AM

Originally Posted by acody

Take off your rose colored Johnny Orr glasses. Johnny Orr was the most popular ISU coach not the best coach. Johnny Orr's record was pathetic in the Big 8 conference and even worse as a road conference coach. Check the record!!

As others have pointed out, many on here have "rose colored" glasses on for both Floyd and Eustachy. I think the measure of the man as coach at ISU is the answer to this question...was the program in better shape when he came to town or when he left town? The answers for the three coaches in question:

Johnny - the program was clearly better when he left.

Tim - the program was arguably in worse shape except for Fizer being in uniform when he left.

Larry - what can I say, the program was in shambles when he left and it left us with Wayne Morgan.

Johnny was both the best and the most popular coach at ISU!!

By the way Floyd coaches USC now and Eustachy coaches Southern Miss and I could care less if either of these guys ever wins another game! Do you think KU fans are still cheering for Roy Williams at UNC?

**ajjohnson** · 03-25-2007, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by cyclone#1

As others have pointed out, many on here have "rose colored" glasses on for both Floyd and Eustachy. I think the measure of the man as coach at ISU is the answer to this question...was the program in better shape when he came to town or when he left town? The answers for the three coaches in question:

Johnny - the program was clearly better when he left.

Tim - the program was arguably in worse shape except for Fizer being in uniform when he left.

Larry - what can I say, the program was in shambles when he left and it left us with Wayne Morgan.

Johnny was both the best and the most popular coach at ISU!!

By the way Floyd coaches USC now and Eustachy coaches Southern Miss and I could care less if either of these guys ever wins another game! Do you think KU fans are still cheering for Roy Williams at UNC?

That argument is absolutely ridiculous. JOHNNY HAD 2 WINNING CONFERENCE SEASONS IN 14 YEARS! A Career 79-105 in conference, and before you bring up it wasn't his fault because the program sucked - HE WAS 27-44 HIS LAST 5 YEARS AFTER BEING IN AMES 9 SEASONS! You can honestly say that is the best coach with a straight face? YOU ARE THE ONE WHO IS BRAINWASHED! Lynn Nance had a winning conference record 2 out of the 3 years before Johnny came! We wouldn't even come close to putting up with 27-44 in conference today, because Eustachy and Floyd proved we can beat anyone instead of the .500 is a great season attitude because we are just poor little Iowa State! You think 27-44 in conference after 9 years to build the program is the mark of a great coach? Call me crazy, but my goal is to be the best team in the country - like we were in 2000, not mediocre! Watch the tape against Michigan State. In a game 60 miles from MSU's campus, with 15,000 of their fans in attendance, the referees had to intervene with a new "block-charge" call to make sure MSU won. If our 29-4 team hadn't had to play a 26-7 team practically on their home court we would have won the national championship. Proving we can reach the highest of highs is so far above a pathetic 27-44 record I don't even know what to say.

Look at the team Wayne inherited - Vroman, Homan, Sullivan, Stinson, Blalock. That is a very talented sweet 16 caliber team that Wayne ****** down his leg, not one in shambles. Wayne must be a great coach and a lot better than Johnny to take a program in shambles to a 55-39 three year record - NOT. Its really sad that some are so brainwashed that 2 winning seasons in 14 years was the best ever, because after all, thats good for us, we're just Iowa State. Selling my great university so short is the only real brainwashing. And I could care less about what people do at Kansas, I hate Kansas, I'm just glad we finally got coaches that could beat them and change the old school losing is allright mentality.

**cyclonenum1** · 03-25-2007, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by ajjohnson

That argument is absolutely ridiculous. JOHNNY HAD 2 WINNING CONFERENCE SEASONS IN 14 YEARS! A Career 79-105 in conference, and before you bring up it wasn't his fault because the program sucked - HE WAS 27-44 HIS LAST 5 YEARS AFTER BEING IN AMES 9 SEASONS! You can honestly say that is the best coach with a straight face? YOU ARE THE ONE WHO IS BRAINWASHED! Lynn Nance had a winning conference record 2 out of the 3 years before Johnny came! We wouldn't even come close to putting up with 27-44 in conference today, because Eustachy and Floyd proved we can beat anyone instead of the .500 is a great season attitude because we are just poor little Iowa State! You think 27-44 in conference after 9 years to build the program is the mark of a great coach? Call me crazy, but my goal is to be the best team in the country - like we were in 2000, not mediocre! Watch the tape against Michigan State. In a game 60 miles from MSU's campus, with 15,000 of their fans in attendance, the referees had to intervene with a new "block-charge" call to make sure MSU won. If our 29-4 team hadn't had to play a 26-7 team practically on their home court we would have won the national championship. Proving we can reach the highest of highs is so far above a pathetic 27-44 record I don't even know what to say.

Look at the team Wayne inherited - Vroman, Homan, Sullivan, Stinson, Blalock. That is a very talented sweet 16 caliber team that Wayne ****** down his leg, not one in shambles. Wayne must be a great coach and a lot better than Johnny to take a program in shambles to a 55-39 three year record - NOT. Its really sad that some are so brainwashed that 2 winning seasons in 14 years was the best ever, because after all, thats good for us, we're just Iowa State. Selling my great university so short is the only real brainwashing. And I could care less about what people do at Kansas, I hate Kansas, I'm just glad we finally got coaches that could beat them and change the old school losing is allright mentality.

OK, Stat Boy...let me give you some stats:

By the way these begin with the 71-72 season (the first for Hilton).

Pre Johnny Orr (9 seasons)
-ISU was 100-139 (.418)
-Average attendance was 8436

Johnny Orr Era (14 seasons)
-ISU was 218-200 (.522)...a .104 improvement
-Average attendance was 12401...a 47% improvement

Tim Floyd
-ISU was 81-49 (.623)...a .101 improvement (not bad but not as good as JO!)
-Average attendance was 11902...a 4% decline

Larry Eustachy
-ISU was 101-59 (.631)...a .008 improvement
-Average attendance was 11379...a 4% decline

I just love your selective use of statistics...only applying importance to conference victories and selecting only certain time periods to make your claims.

The reality is that before Johnny Orr, our non-conference schedule included the likes of South Dakota St. and Mankato State (and we sometimes lost to these teams!). After he got here we were playing the likes of Indiana and Purdue in the non-conference season and being invited to prestigious pre-season tournaments.

Another reality is that the old Big 8 was a much tougher and deeper conference than the Big 12 has been. In 1988 KU and OU played for the National Championship for heaven's sake!

By the way, in 1986 Orr beat a number 1 seeded team (Michigan) to get his team into the Sweet 16. We then lost to a loaded NC State team 70-66 in a great game. I was at both games by the way! Did Floyd or Eustachy ever beat a number one seed in the tourney? I do remember us losing to a 15 seed under Eustachy in the first round and I do remember us blowing a big lead in the Sweet 16 10 years ago under Floyd (I was there for that game too). I also remember the Regional Final under Eustachy...not for the site of the game or for the calls in the game...but rather for the total melt-down of our coach at the end of the game. What an embarrassment that was on national television for our school!

As I said in a previous post, I think Floyd and Eustachy are fine coaches. I just don't think they were as good as Orr or did as much for ISU basketball as Orr!

I too want us to be a consistent top 10 basketball program that makes the Sweet 16 on a regular basis and goes to the Final Four every few years. I firmly believe Orr did more to help our program get to that point than any other coach by a very large margin!

One last thing...Johnny Orr is a Cyclone! Floyd is a Trojan and Eustachy is a Golden Eagle. You sound like the kind of guy that crawls, begging on his hands and knees back to a girlfriend that has just dumped you!