Jay Leno Asks Why - OT

**isucyfan** · 05-01-2007, 04:49 PM

Despite everything that is going on in the world today, we still do live in the greatest country in the world. The faux-Leno essay gets that right. But to me, this only reinforces my opinion that we can do better, and aren't. In my opinion, we have gone backwards as a country in the last decade, both morally and in other countries' view of us. We are using our power and standing to bully and meddle, not to help. Imagine the resources we're sending to Iraq helping those in Darfur, or even Kentucky for that matter.

**Cyclonepride** · 05-01-2007, 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by benjay

That might make more sense had Iraq been found with WMD's or if they had been in any way linked to Al'Qaeda.

First of all, you're wrong. Frequent car bombings or suicide bombings would drastically affect our way of life. Second, of course I do not think we should "let" terrorist cells or hostile states harboring terrorists operate unchecked.

There are three theories out on Iraq, and weapons of mass destruction.

Theory #1- They never had them. Saddam Hussein went out of his way to project the thought that he might. Maybe he just did a good job.

Theory #2- They had them, and they were moved to Syria ahead of the invasion.

Theory #3- They had the blueprints to them, and were actively pursuing that agenda, but never put them into operation.

Notice that they are all theories, as none of them is completely proven.

It could be said that 9/11 changed our way of life drastically. I would contend that it did. But I would also say that we have been able to overcome it, and our economy is rolling along as strong as ever. The complete loss of an American city, along with 100's of thousands of lives, and the billions in cleanup would not only drop our economy completely in the toilet, our reaction would be way more serious than our reaction to 9/11. We have no draft, no rationing, nothing of the sort. If you never turned on the news, you wouldn't know there was a war going on.

**cloneatlaw** · 05-01-2007, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by cycloneworld

So many American lives?? Go study previous American wars and see how many soldiers lost their lives in those. We are doing a remarkable job of keeping the number of American deaths down (although I would rather see that number even smaller).

I agree with you that, when compared to previous wars, fewer American lives have been lost in Iraq. That wasn't really my point, though. Every time an American soldier is killed their commander-in-chief had better have a dang good reason. That's the same no matter whether it's Lyndon Johnson / Richard Nixon in Vietnam, George H.W. Bush in the Persian Gulf War, Bill Clinton in Kosovo or President Bush in Iraq. Because all the main previous reasons (WMD, pre-war Al-Qaeda connection, freedom for people who want it) have no support, I'm struggling to understand why even one more American soldier has to die. Because I think we could neutralize more terrorists if we came home from Iraq and spend a portion of that money for expanded worldwide intelligence, targeted strikes on known al-Qaeda strongholds, and increased economic / diplomatic pressureon those nations that support international terrorism, I can't support the commander who keeps our troops at risk. But I do agree that it is a tribute to our massive military budget that we can occupy such a hostile country for over 4 years and only lose 3300 lives / 24,000 wounded.

**isucyfan** · 05-01-2007, 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by Cyclonepride

There are three theories out on Iraq, and weapons of mass destruction.

Theory #1- They never had them. Saddam Hussein went out of his way to project the thought that he might. Maybe he just did a good job.

Theory #2- They had them, and they were moved to Syria ahead of the invasion.

Theory #3- They had the blueprints to them, and were actively pursuing that agenda, but never put them into operation.

I would add theory #4 as being GWB (more likely Cheney) tweaked and/or cherry-picked intelligence to make it seem to the American people and the world that the #2 or #3 theories were correct. I would love to talk to Colin Powell in private and see what he believes now. He has been very quiet on this matter since leaving office after being paraded in front of Congress holding up that vial and showing blueprints of the mobile biological weapons labs the Iraqis "had".

**cycloneworld** · 05-01-2007, 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by isucyfan

Despite everything that is going on in the world today, we still do live in the greatest country in the world. The faux-Leno essay gets that right. But to me, this only reinforces my opinion that we can do better, and aren't. In my opinion, we have gone backwards as a country in the last decade, both morally and in other countries' view of us. We are using our power and standing to bully and meddle, not to help. Imagine the resources we're sending to Iraq helping those in Darfur, or even Kentucky for that matter.

I agree with a lot of what you say here. And invading Iraq may have been a mistake but the fact of the matter is that we are in it now. We are all pretty good at Monday morning quarterbacking.

But right now, we have 2 options: fix our "mistake" or pull out and walk away from it. I know in my line of work if I make a mistake, I am expected to fix it. Not just walk away from it. Which is why I don't understand why some want to just pull out and throw away everything good we have done there.

**chadm** · 05-01-2007, 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by isucyfan

I would add theory #4 as being GWB (more likely Cheney) tweaked and/or cherry-picked intelligence to make it seem to the American people and the world that the #2 or #3 theories were correct. I would love to talk to Colin Powell in private and see what he believes now. He has been very quiet on this matter since leaving office after being paraded in front of Congress holding up that vial and showing blueprints of the mobile biological weapons labs the Iraqis "had".

FYI, it was the UN.

**isucyfan** · 05-01-2007, 05:00 PM

Originally Posted by cycloneworld

So many American lives?? Go study previous American wars and see how many soldiers lost their lives in those. We are doing a remarkable job of keeping the number of American deaths down (although I would rather see that number even smaller).

This sounds like spin to me. The conservatives would say that even one American life lost to terrorism on our soil is unacceptable. Why can't the same be said about our soldiers' lives in Iraq?

**isucyfan** · 05-01-2007, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by chadm

FYI, it was the UN.

You're right, thanks!

**cycloneworld** · 05-01-2007, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by isucyfan

This sounds like spin to me. The conservatives would say that even one American life lost to terrorism on our soil is unacceptable. Why can't the same be said about our soldiers' lives in Iraq?

With that philosophy, how could we ever have a nation defense system?

**Cyclonepride** · 05-01-2007, 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by isucyfan

I would add theory #4 as being GWB (more likely Cheney) tweaked and/or cherry-picked intelligence to make it seem to the American people and the world that the #2 or #3 theories were correct. I would love to talk to Colin Powell in private and see what he believes now. He has been very quiet on this matter since leaving office after being paraded in front of Congress holding up that vial and showing blueprints of the mobile biological weapons labs the Iraqis "had".

Yeah, I am sure there are more theories. And I am not naive enough to discount that people in power may have agendas. However, the operative word in your quote was mobile. As in, could be driven away.

**isucyfan** · 05-01-2007, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by cycloneworld

But right now, we have 2 options: fix our "mistake" or pull out and walk away from it. I know in my line of work if I make a mistake, I am expected to fix it. Not just walk away from it. Which is why I don't understand why some want to just pull out and throw away everything good we have done there.

Generally I agree. But unfortunately, this is a problem we don't seem able to solve. It has been a problem for thousands of years, and probably will be for another thousand. A troop surge is not going to undo a thousand years of conflict. I realize that many lives would be lost if we pull out and leave them to fight amongst one another, but that is what is happening now, and it's killing our men and women, too.

**isucyfan** · 05-01-2007, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by cycloneworld

With that philosophy, how could we ever have a nation defense system?

The difference to me is that the Commander in Chief used to use the the troops wisely, for wars that were justified in defending the nation, not for justifying a personal agenda without the support of the world. We clearly went after the wrong people in this war, and American lives are being lost because of this misguided act.

**Cyclonepride** · 05-01-2007, 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by Cyclonepride

Oh, and most people who have lost an argument don't go back to look

.

Kyle?.............Are you there, Kyle?

**Erik4Cy** · 05-01-2007, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by Bryceman

Fact is, we are the largest group of ungrateful, spoiled brats the world has ever seen. No wonder the world loves the US, yet has a great disdain for its citizens. They see us for what we are. The most blessed people in the world who do nothing but complain about what we don't have, and what we hate about the country instead of thanking the good Lord we
live here.

I don't agree with this whatsoever...I don't believe the world LOVES the US and has a great disdain for it citizens, i think its completely the other way around. I talk to a lot of people outside of the U.S. mostly in the U.K. and Europe and they all LOVE the american people themselves but totally hate the United States government. We act as though we are the world's police force and make ourselves look like war-mongerers in the process. We believe we are the only ones that matter in the world and whatever we say to other countries GOES! The United States of America is a great country, but I get sick of everyone in America who calls it the greatest country on earth (AND THEY HAVE NEVER LEFT THE COUNTRY!!! HOW Dumb is THAT?) At least go see what other countries are like (don't trust what you hear about them.) I love America, but it's like Lewis Black says:

"America is the only country on earth that tells all the other countries, on a nearly constant basis, that it is the greatest country on earth. If someone at your work came in everyday and said "I am the greatest person here!!!! and all you sniveling sh*ts would die without me!!! muahahaha," you would have killed him by the end of the week and EATEN him just to try and possess his power."

**jbhtexas** · 05-01-2007, 07:31 PM

isucyclone4, have you talked to anybody in The Netherlands lately? Are they enjoying the violence being perpetrated against them by Muslim fundamentalists?

I'm guessing in about 10 years, when The Netherlands has been completely taken over by Muslim fundamentalists (if it lasts that long), the Dutch will be wishing that their government acted a little bit more like ours. Same for Germany, Belgium, etc.