Jay Leno Asks Why - OT

**Kyle** · 05-01-2007, 09:09 AM

Originally Posted by cycloneworld

I would simply ask each one of you this question:

How would your life be different if there was another President in office?

1. I can't say this personally, but quite a large number of people know someone who was killed or wounded in Iraq.

2. Being young, I am going to have to deal with the national debt at some point, and my children will as well.

3. This may not affect me now, but the consequences of a destabilized Middle East a nuclear Iran and North Korea could come back to bite us very easily.

**Knownothing** · 05-01-2007, 10:02 AM

There will always be people that are against a war. Those people generally are not, nor were they ever willing to fight for our country. They were only willing to tell our country what we should be doing from the safety of the sidewalk infront of "install military base or federal building here". They were NEVER EVER willing to stand a post, Go on a raid, Set up an ambush, Patrole a hot zone, or land in a hot LZ. They were only willing to tell us how wrong we are for doing it. Remember 09/11. Well I also remember the USS Cole (1 buddy on the ship). I remember Beruit in 83 (several friends that were in Beruit). For the record, yes I am a Marine. I have been there and done that. Before Rowanda was a Movie. Myself and a bunch of my buddies were there in 94. Before Iraq we were fighting a silent war in Bosnia.

The moral of my story. The press only let's you know about certain wars they want to make there money off of. The rest of it is just some grunt getting it done the hard way.

**mj4cy** · 05-01-2007, 10:07 AM

I love it here and yes there are some things to change, but we do have it pretty nice. If I need to go get a pizza at 4 AM, then I could find a bunch of places that would do that. Convenience is amazing.

**cycloneworld** · 05-01-2007, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by Kyle

1. I can't say this personally, but quite a large number of people know someone who was killed or wounded in Iraq.

2. Being young, I am going to have to deal with the national debt at some point, and my children will as well.

3. This may not affect me now, but the consequences of a destabilized Middle East a nuclear Iran and North Korea could come back to bite us very easily.

1. I think war was inevitable after 9/11...no matter who the President was. Also, someone signs up to defend the country, they know going to war is part of their responsibility. See Knownothing's excellent last post.

2. Almost no one in Washington has any sense of fiscal responsibility...they will run on it but never follow through.

3. Iran and North Korea would be doing what they are doing regardless of who is President.

So I'm not sure any of these things could have been avoided no matter who the President would be.

**everyyard** · 05-01-2007, 10:11 AM

Wow, you have convinced me. Since we have all these good things I am now okay with my friends dying in a war that should never have happened to make sure our oil supply is secure so we can all continue to enjoy these luxuries. Thanks for helping me get over my frustration with our country being the bully of the entire world. No wonder other counties hate us...its not because we kill them and keep their economies stiffled...it is because we have air conditioning.

**Knownothing** · 05-01-2007, 10:14 AM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wow, you have convinced me. Since we have all these good things I am now okay with my friends dying in a war that should never have happened to make sure our oil supply is secure so we can all continue to enjoy these luxuries. Thanks for helping me get over my frustration with our country being the bully of the entire world. No wonder other counties hate us...its not because we kill them and keep their economies stiffled...it is because we have air conditioning.

Quit getting all your news from moveon.org and you will enjoy a better life. This war is not for oil. If you say it is it makes you sound like you have read the far far left hype machine. This war was about mis inteligence and removing a bad man from office. The war was not fought very smart and the follow up was bad. The oil thing is just stupid. We have far enough oil.

**Whitey** · 05-01-2007, 10:21 AM

Wow, what a stupid rant. Yes, we're often blind to how good we have it. However, we should still feel the drive to make it better.

The soldiers who died in Afghanistan may have died helping defend my freedom. However, the one's in Iraq were the wasted casualties of an idiot Commander in Chief.

George Walker Bush will, rightfully so, go down in history as one of the worst presidents ever. He is the worst two term president ever, hands down.

I also love how he says that we have religious freedom, but we shouldn't take God out of the pledge. In America, we have Christian freedom, but only tolerance of people who practice a minority religion, or none at all.

I don't want anyone to presume to tell me how good I have it when they have it better than me.

**Knownothing** · 05-01-2007, 10:32 AM

I feel like arguing my points. Sometimes you have to look at who you are arguing with and step away from the conversation. So you all have fun arguing this one out. I said my peace.

**cycloneworld** · 05-01-2007, 10:43 AM

When I hear ignorant comments like "war for oil" and personal attacks against the President of the United States (you don't have to like him but he's still the President), I abandon any kind of civil debate and discussion that was happening beforehand.

**BryceC** · 05-01-2007, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by Knownothing

There will always be people that are against a war. Those people generally are not, nor were they ever willing to fight for our country. They were only willing to tell our country what we should be doing from the safety of the sidewalk infront of "install military base or federal building here". They were NEVER EVER willing to stand a post, Go on a raid, Set up an ambush, Patrole a hot zone, or land in a hot LZ. They were only willing to tell us how wrong we are for doing it. Remember 09/11. Well I also remember the USS Cole (1 buddy on the ship). I remember Beruit in 83 (several friends that were in Beruit). For the record, yes I am a Marine. I have been there and done that. Before Rowanda was a Movie. Myself and a bunch of my buddies were there in 94. Before Iraq we were fighting a silent war in Bosnia.

The moral of my story. The press only let's you know about certain wars they want to make there money off of. The rest of it is just some grunt getting it done the hard way.

I'm not against war at all, and I never said I was. I was against the war in Iraq because even at the time I thought we had bigger fish to fry and there was insufficent evidence to go to war there. Do I think we've done good things by fighting in Iraq? Of course I do, I just think we're in a big bind over there now. We're in a worse position right now as far as Iran and Korea go and they are much greater threats than Iraq ever was. I have friends that fought in Bosnia as well. I'm no friend of the media, I just think Iraq was a hands down bad idea and I think I'm being proven right daily.

**cycloneworld** · 05-01-2007, 10:47 AM

Bryce, I think if everyone had your thought process and ability to explain yourself on this subject, there could be so many good discussions and questions directed to this administration that may actually get some answers. It's refreshing to hear someone's well thought out response rather than go the "Bush is a moron" route. Nice work.

**mapnerd** · 05-01-2007, 10:55 AM

My perception is that oil is at least a small part of the Iraq war. Yes, Saddam Hussein was a d-bag that needed to be disposed of, but why aren't we in the Sudan helping those people? It's because Sudan doesn't have jack. You can't deny the many ties our adminstration has to the oil industry. We should have been tougher on the auto industries and push them to make cars that didn't use as much gas (or used something else), then we wouldn't be as dependent on oil.

President Bush is just a lame duck riding this one out. Of course he's not going to change anything because he can't admit that he was ever wrong.

**ketelmeister** · 05-01-2007, 11:03 AM

A rambling rant in my view. Some parts make sense, others don't and it simply doesn't fit together.

**cycloneworld** · 05-01-2007, 11:04 AM

Just to educate some people...Iraq only supplies the United States with 5.2% of its imported foreign oil (from 2005 numbers).

Currently, we import twice as much oil as we produced...which is completely reversed of what it has in the past. However, we cannot up production because many environmentalists are against any new oil drilling. Here is a graph showing US production vs. foreign importing:

So we get approximately 3% of our oil from Iraq.

**cyclonenum1** · 05-01-2007, 11:05 AM

A very interesting thread. A few musings from this conservative (which by the way does not necessarily equal Republican):

-Many people living in "poverty" in the US would be considered well-to-do in most parts of the world. I live near a city that has numerous government housing projects (aka the projects). Many of the people that live in this free housing do not work regular jobs and get "paid" from the government doles. If you drive through "the projects" you would be shocked to see that nearly every housing unit has a cable tv dish and that most of the people have new or relatively new cars.

-We are at war in Iraq because it is better to be fighting our enemies (Islamic extremists) on their turf than our own. How many of you would have predicted on 9/12/01 that nearly 6 years later there would have not been another similar incident on US soil? I know that I thought another attack was certain, if not imminent. When we cease to be on the offensive with these people we will be on the defensive and they will come after us here at home.

-The national debt is a red herring. I believe that our national debt as a percentage of GDP is lower now than it has been for some time. You should all remember that debt is a tool that, if used properly, can be quite beneficial. Look at your own personal life...most of you that own a home would not probably be able to do so if not for having a mortgage (which is a common debt instrument). Our government uses debt as a tool.

-Probably the biggest looming problem in our country is the increased pace of "social spending" on programs like social security and medicare/medicaid. These programs need to be totally "re-engineered". They were put into place in the 30s when the typical American died before the age of 65 and never got to collect. Today, the typical American lives to nearly 80...more people than ever are collecting. And because elderly people are a very active political (AARP) and voting group they have actually motivated our government to increase benefits (the prescription drug law).

-Those of you that say Bush 43 has done "nothing" worthwhile are total political idealogues. You probably cannot be rationalized with. In my opinion, Bush has done a number of good things as President (fighting the war on our enemies turf, reduced taxes) but he has also done some things that I am not so fond of (increased government spending through both the prescription drug law and the no child left behind law). I do give him great credit for having certain convictions that he will not waver from...that is very unusual in the typical politician...most politicians are keen on telling the people whatever they want to hear (as determined by polls and focus groups).

Gotta go...Rush is on the radio and I need to get my "marching orders"! (sarcasm)