Where's everyone coming from

[Cyclone62]

Well, you have to believe that Jesus is the Son of God and died for your sins in order to be considered a Christian in most people's minds so if you have questions as to whether he even existed then that's probably the problem you're running into. I'm sorry if you've had bad experiences in the past but unlike the rest of the world, most Christians are genuinely concerned about where you'll spend eternity. I can see how that concern can often be seen as "pushiness" and "forcing a religion on you."

I understand the concern part, but for those who do not believe the same thing(s) exactly, telling them they need to find Jesus (like a Jew) would be considered pressuring one faith on someone else. And that, is essentially the problem with allowing faith to run your job (as a teacher, chaplain/counselor, etc.) I'm not saying I believe necessarily that there wasn't a son of god/Jesus, but I have trouble believing my actions as a good and moral person would count against me in the eyes of God. I also believe there would be a purgetory-zone in the afterlife for semi-righteous/moral non-believers if there is a just God. I just think that saying that not believing wholeheartedly is going to send you to the same place as those who denounce God altogether and those who are truly evil is a bit of a scare tactic. Just my take on organized religion.

[mj4cy]

I'm a Christian by faith, not by religion.

[Kyle]

What is your air-tight argument against it?

Basically just a modified problem of evil argument. Here's a barebones premise/conclusion form.

1. There exists a God which is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good.
2. Such a God would not allow beings to come into existence that would eventually spend an eternity in hell unless it was necessary for the existence of a greater good.
3. The existence of beings that will spend an eternity in hell is not necessary for the existence of a greater good.
4. Beings exist that will spend an eternity in hell.
C. As the above 4 statements are not internally consistent one must be false.

Typically Christians will attack premise 3 as the false one, usually asserting that free will is the greater good. There are several ways this can be addressed, so I'll save that for later if there is interest.

[Cyclonepride]

2) Then why is it common knowledge that you "need" to go to church to be a good Christian? I had a pretty good relationship with my hometown pastor...he would always ask me if I was going to church in Ames, to which I would say "no". And he would ask why not and that I should be going? Why?

I'll paraphrase something that I read in the New Testament that goes against that thought, Jesus said that wherever two or three are gathered together in His name, He will be among them. That's enough for me to believe that I can worship where I see fit, whether it's in the middle of a fancy church, or kneeling in my bedroom at night.

[LindenCy]

Basically just a modified problem of evil argument. Here's a barebones premise/conclusion form.

1. There exists a God which is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good.
2. Such a God would not allow beings to come into existence that would eventually spend an eternity in hell unless it was necessary for the existence of a greater good.
3. The existence of beings that will spend an eternity in hell is not necessary for the existence of a greater good.
4. Beings exist that will spend an eternity in hell.
C. As the above 4 statements are not internally consistent one must be false.

Typically Christians will attack premise 3 as the false one, usually asserting that free will is the greater good. There are several ways this can be addressed, so I'll save that for later if there is interest.

I'm actually writing my dissertation on evil and sin. It should be fun.

[Cyclone62]

I still believe in God and follow a lot of Christian morals and ideals but I think organized religion is sham for several reasons. I think there are other ways to practice Christianity without going to church and a pastor/church telling you what to do and how to act.

Here here! ::clanks beer glasses::

[Kyle]

I'm actually writing my dissertation on evil and sin. It should be fun.

Where and what are you studying?

[CloneFan65]

Basically just a modified problem of evil argument. Here's a barebones premise/conclusion form.

1. There exists a God which is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good.
2. Such a God would not allow beings to come into existence that would eventually spend an eternity in hell unless it was necessary for the existence of a greater good.
3. The existence of beings that will spend an eternity in hell is not necessary for the existence of a greater good.
4. Beings exist that will spend an eternity in hell.
C. As the above 4 statements are not internally consistent one must be false.

Typically Christians will attack premise 3 as the false one, usually asserting that free will is the greater good. There are several ways this can be addressed, so I'll save that for later if there is interest.

This argument, if you accept the premises, concludes that an all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good god contradicts the concept of eternal hell. It doesn't prove that there is a contradiction in a god that is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all good. The typical argument against this concerns a contradiction with the existence of evil in the world. This is where the counter-argument for free will comes in.

[Kyle]

This argument, if you accept the premises, concludes that an all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good god contradicts the concept of eternal hell. It doesn't prove that there is a contradiction in a god that is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all good. The typical argument against this concerns a contradiction with the existence of evil in the world. This is where the counter-argument for free will comes in.

Thus why I said it was just a modified problem of evil argument. I think my argument is a bit stronger, but it is clearly more narrowly focussed on a belief system that includes hell. The free will thing doesn't work against the regular problem of evil either though.

[Incyte]

Then tell me why if I don't feel that Jesus was a real person/savior why so many christians are trying to "save my soul"? That seems to be telling people you need to believe and worship a certain way.

Do you not really believe Jesus was not a real person? That seems to defy reason if you ask me.

[CyGal]

Do you not really believe Jesus was not a real person? That seems to defy reason if you ask me.

Believing Jesus is a real person and beliving Jesus is what the Christian religion says he was are two different things. There is proof that a person named Jesus existed 2000+ years ago. But some people may have issues accepting that Jesus is God's son. In fact, the 10 commandments tell us not to worship anyone but God, and yet the Christians worship Jesus and the Holy Trinity in direct defiance of that relgious law.

[tigershoops31]

Thus why I said it was just a modified problem of evil argument. I think my argument is a bit stronger, but it is clearly more narrowly focussed on a belief system that includes hell. The free will thing doesn't work against the regular problem of evil either though.

Free will explains the existence of evil though. God created everything to choose for themselves their path. I understand that you are saying why would he let them choose evil and that this goes against an all-loving God. All God requires from us to avoid separation from Him is for us to put our trust in Him and desire to be with Him. When Lucifer turned his back on God in the beginning and brought his crew of angels away from God, this started the presence of sin/evil. Once Lucifer (the Devil) realized his fate to be banishment from heaven and a future in the pit, he wanted to hurt God as much as he could in the meantime. The worst way that God can be hurt is to have His creations turn from him. Thus, the Devil has spent all of time trying to turn as many away from God as possible.

Because God gives us the right to choose, the choice is ours whether or not we will turn to God and do our best to sin no more, or away from Him and do as we please. The thing many people have a problem understanding/agreeing with is that some non-believers are "better people" than many believers, but still are not heading to heaven when they die in their current state. For example, in high school I worked extremely hard to model my daily behavior after ******. I still screwed up, but I worked to fix these screw ups right away. In college, I strayed from my walk big time for a couple of years. I was as big a sinner as there was for a time. All the while, my non-believing roommate was a model citizen who was mild mannered and didn't do many of the sinful things I did. I am embarrassed to say that anybody who met us both during this time would have guessed he was the Christian and I was not. I am now pleased to say that he has accepted ****** since, and I have turned myself back around and am trying to live my life in a more ******-like manner.

It's a hard pill to swallow that a good guy like that wouldn't have been saved when he died while a moron like myself would have been, but he still had heard the message and had not believed/trusted up to that point. All God asks is that we place our trust in Him and if we do that we should want to be as good an example as we can be for Him. We still screw up because that free choice thing never goes away, but God never wills for us to sin and be separated from Him either.

[CloneFan65]

The free will thing doesn't work against the regular problem of evil either though.

Actually it does work. Assume as a parent I'm all-good. With my children I could force them to make the right choices their whole lives. They would live under my roof and I could dictate all their actions. The other option is I could raise them in a way where I teach them right from wrong, but at some point allow them to leave home and choose their own path through life. I guess I would argue the latter is the "better" option.

[CloneFan65]

Believing Jesus is a real person and beliving Jesus is what the Christian religion says he was are two different things. There is proof that a person named Jesus existed 2000+ years ago. But some people may have issues accepting that Jesus is God's son. In fact, the 10 commandments tell us not to worship anyone but God, and yet the Christians worship Jesus and the Holy Trinity in direct defiance of that relgious law.

The Holy Trinity represents the three ways in which God relates to the world. As the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They are not three separates gods.

[herbiedoobie]

Basically just a modified problem of evil argument. Here's a barebones premise/conclusion form.

1. There exists a God which is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good.
2. Such a God would not allow beings to come into existence that would eventually spend an eternity in hell unless it was necessary for the existence of a greater good.
3. The existence of beings that will spend an eternity in hell is not necessary for the existence of a greater good.
4. Beings exist that will spend an eternity in hell.
C. As the above 4 statements are not internally consistent one must be false.

Typically Christians will attack premise 3 as the false one, usually asserting that free will is the greater good. There are several ways this can be addressed, so I'll save that for later if there is interest.

Actually, paradoxes are quite common in nature. IF you believe what science tells us about "how the world works." If you do not accept that paradoxical reality exists in belief, do you believe in science?

I would counter-argue that the logic used in that argument is linear and simplistic, in addition to being incorrect.

Do you believe in the existence of black holes or relativity? Neither one can exist, given the limitations of your logical proof.

I love this subject. I'm considering earning a PhD in History of Technology and Science at ISU.