Where's everyone coming from

**Kyle** · 06-07-2007, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by CloneFan65

I don't think I'm doing a good job of expressing my views on this. I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts into words. I understand this idea of "sufficient conditions", but why is it contradictory to have some of these conditions within our conscious control.

Consciousness is a complex thing, but not fundamentally different from other things in that its actions need causes, and there can be sufficient causes for conscious actions or not. The conscious control you speak of means primarily that we have thought about stuff during our decision making process. This would not change the determinedness of that process or the resulting decision.

Also, is this argument against free-will independent from the argument against a tri-omni God?

It can easily be independent of any argument about God. However, that is where free will arguments tend to come up.

**CloneFan65** · 06-07-2007, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by Kyle

I find it a little hard to believe just about anything could happen which is not the will of a tri-omni God that created the universe. In that case we would only be acting the way God wanted us to now. The only other option I can see is that God somehow created a universe in which things just randomly occur without cause, which doesn't help the case for free will any.

It seems to me that you're saying that if there is a tri-omni God then there are only two ways for actions to take place. Either they are the will of God or they are random. Why is it not possible that God has given Man the gift of free will and chosen to stay out of our way?

**Kyle** · 06-07-2007, 08:40 PM

Originally Posted by CloneFan65

It seems to me that you're saying that if there is a tri-omni God then there are only two ways for actions to take place. Either they are the will of God or they are random. Why is it not possible that God has given Man the gift of free will and chosen to stay out of our way?

It is a dichotomy. There really are only the two options I've been discussing. The "3rd option" you are proposing must fall within one of those two options. Again, just what is this free will you speak of? It cannot be defined in such a way as to create a third option.

**CloneFan65** · 06-07-2007, 08:47 PM

Originally Posted by Kyle

It is a dichotomy. There really are only the two options I've been discussing. The "3rd option" you are proposing must fall within one of those two options.

I'm not convinced of this.