***OFFICIAL FIRE MESSINGHAM THREAD***

[Wesley]

2-8 in bowls Good for about ninth place in the conference.

[boone7247]

I played for a ****** iowa high school. Played some tight end, split end and QB. We had a horrible offensive coach. My class graduates, the next year the football coach quits. They hire a guy who would do all the things our old coach always said we couldn't.

This relates to ISU in that, we always talk about our talent can't do this or that. That is ********. A good system generally works for any team, provided the OC can meld the system to the talent. That hasn't happened since CPR got here. The talent is acceptable, obviously an upgrade would help. But first we need an offense that works.

[Wally86]

Just got out of the game. We had one big Offensive play and one big defensive play. The clones didn't throw catch or tackle well. Trey Watts is a great back and made our defense look silly in the first half. We did make adjustments and slowed him down in the second half.

We showed a lack of self control and got called for all sorts of penalties. CPR needs to address this.

I wanted to start the fire Mess thread. If you have three QBs that can't find an open reciever, it's not a QB problem its an OC problem. One of the few runs Woody made was outside, not his strength. We need a new OC. Regarless of offensive style, if you can't run up the middle you'll have poor conversion rates in the red zone. We need a new OC. If the offensive linemen aren't effective in the run, the OC has to see that they get appropriate training and talent. We need a new OC. If CPR doesn't get an effective OC he will doom himself to McCarneyhood. CPR please get a new OC.

[Rolling Clones]

The zone read is always awful.

I could not agree more. It has to go.

[Wesley]

I played for a ****** iowa high school. Played some tight end, split end and QB. We had a horrible offensive coach. My class graduates, the next year the football coach quits. They hire a guy who would do all the things our old coach always said we couldn't.

This relates to ISU in that, we always talk about our talent can't do this or that. That is ********. A good system generally works for any team, provided the OC can meld the system to the talent. That hasn't happened since CPR got here. The talent is acceptable, obviously an upgrade would help. But first we need an offense that works.

Air Force played years with less talent.

[cyatheart]

Man, lets hire the Tulsa OC. If that guy can make it work with Cody green, he can make it work here.
Greg Peterson Profile - Tulsa Official Athletic Site

This is a good point. Cody Green is a crap QB, dude can't throw a forward pass more than 5 years. but they put him in postion to do the things he can do well.

[cyatheart]

It seems that the more 1st team reps the qbs get, the worse they get.

You noticed too I see. This is particularly concerning to me.

Jantz regressed in his time here, dude clearly has/had ability. Remember what he did against Iowa? Barnett...look at him last year versus this year. Why are these guys, both who showed flashes of brilliance, regressing? Just odd to me that we have two guys on this roster, who both played some of the best games in the history or Iowa State football at the quarterback position....both have no confidence and regressed to this point?

[CycloneVet]

The problem is the scheme. Even Tulsa ran a bunch of plays from under center. Quick snap, quick handoff, O-line just blasts off the ball and gain some yards. Every freaking play we run is the same. QB right in the middle of the field, 3 seconds to decide what to do, and no gain.

We run no mis-direction, so the D is never out of position. All they have to do is stay where they are and wait. Watch all the best teams, they run one play that works so much and is so easy. Start under center. Play action fake to the tailback going one way. QB rolls out the other way, while the whole defense goes with the fake. They also have better athletes and are more physical up front. The TE drags across the field, easy 8-10 yard completion. Or bunch the receivers, and run a bunch of crossing routes, confuse the defense. We just look like the easiest team in the world to defend.

If Mess wants to change the scheme, give him a chance. If not, get someone else.

There I fixed it for you. When we were physically dominant against KU everything looked good didnt it. I believe SR delivered the ball on time and Mess looked like a genius. The problem is when theor guys are better than yours at a couple of positions then things get blown up. Its basic football. Do you know why the top SEC teams are so dominant? Its because of their physicality on both sides of the ball especially up front.


Here are a few examples from the past:
1. Nick Fairley beat Oregon himself because he consistently blew up the middle of the line and dominated the guy in front of him a few years back when Auburn won the National Title. We can all agree that Oregon runs a pretty successful offense right?
2. Against OSU last year, if KO doesnt absolutletly domiate the guy across from him in the OT, does Woody go crazy and win the game with that td?

The point is simple, football hasnt ever really changed, if your guy can consistently be more physical than their guy then you have an advanatage. The spread has helped even it out for teams such as ISU because it can help create mismatches. Our problem right now is we do not have guys that are a mismatch. Money Reynolds last year had a lot of success because of his size/strength and atletic ability. Just watch the Iowa and UConn games and you will see that. Josh Lenz who was our best receiver doesnt have that, neither does Aarron Horne. Bundrage is a guy that can be that way, I like him a lot. I never thought we would miss Reynolds as much as we have. Im hoping Quan West can be a replacement, I know Lazard likely will be the type of guy we need.

The good news is that help is coming or potentially in the program. I have heard that Shaban Dika if healthy (big IF) is very physical, and the D-line this year was much better than last, I believe that trend could continue with some of the guys in the program. Plus the way Rhoads has recruited these 4 years will cont to pay dividends.

We are all ****** about about tonight, but man oh man, I dont want to start over again. Also lets be respectful ok.

[Luth4Cy]

Our pass offense is horizontal, which is not good when you already lack playmakers. Our run game was susceptible to TFLs even when we had a powerful Oline (delayed, from the shotgun, and based on the QB correctly reading unblocked defenders). The play-calling after the first few series is rarely thinking more than one pay out. It was a mistake to go with this scheme in 2008. Choosing Mess to run it in 2012 was an even worse decision. What does CPR have to go on to think this offense and Mess will make the improvement needed?

CPR most likely believes this offense will make the improvements needed because unlike he knows Mess personally and knows that he will make an effort to improve. He has also recruited for this system and now is not the time to make any major changes. I could see some small systematic changes but I think all of our coaches have done a fairly admirable job as a whole. Mess's biggest issue appears to be that he isn't great at making in game changes. That is something that should improve over time, and I think it has some this season.

[CycloneVet]

The spread offense may still be the system for us. The spread helps the lower recruits teams (normally like us) match up with higher end recruiting teams. But a more physical run game helps cold weather teams. Also, it appears to me that our offensive line is the strength in our recruiting. Thus, I am torn - spread or smash mouth? Smash mouth is Iowa - boring and no success. We have a hell of a lot better speed recruits in Texas and Florida then they do. Let's go with the middle - pro style like under McCarney.

I think having a more physical spread scheme is just what we need, just because you are physical doesnt mean that you have to run a pro set like Iowa. Why not be dominant across the front so that the zone read works no matter who gets the ball. We dont always need to have someone crashing to make a decision on who gets the ball right, why not push everyone 5 yards downfield.:)

[Luth4Cy]

I think having a more physical spread scheme is just what we need, just because you are physical doesnt mean that you have to run a pro set like Iowa. Why not be dominant across the front so that the zone read works no matter who gets the ball. We dont always need to have someone crashing to make a decision on who gets the ball right, why not push everyone 5 yards downfield.:)

I agree with you, except we don't have very physical backs outside of Woody. I too would like to see a more physical spread with some more pistol and running between the tackles, but to do that we need some more physical backs, we may get that in a couple years with Justin Webster if Rhoads chooses to play him on offense.

[heitclone]

CPR most likely believes this offense will make the improvements needed because unlike he knows Mess personally and knows that he will make an effort to improve. He has also recruited for this system and now is not the time to make any major changes. I could see some small systematic changes but I think all of our coaches have done a fairly admirable job as a whole. Mess's biggest issue appears to be that he isn't great at making in game changes. That is something that should improve over time, and I think it has some this season.

This is 100 percent true, I know its tough when you are having trouble getting things going but it seemed like we just keep grinding away doing the same things. Or he goes away from things that work, for instance, the diamond formation with Horne in the backfield that hit for the big play at TCU. Where was that the rest of the year? Do we only have that one play out of it? Was that just a package developed for JB? IDK...

In his defense, he had to go with 3 different QB's. That couldn't have helped his rhythm with playcalling or getting familiar with what each QB (who has a different skill set) bring in different situations.

[swarthmoreCY]

CPR most likely believes this offense will make the improvements needed because unlike he knows Mess personally and knows that he will make an effort to improve. He has also recruited for this system and now is not the time to make any major changes. I could see some small systematic changes but I think all of our coaches have done a fairly admirable job as a whole. Mess's biggest issue appears to be that he isn't great at making in game changes. That is something that should improve over time, and I think it has some this season.

This is not junior high football, making an effort means little. Admirable job? At what? Playing calling? Development? Recruiting?
Unless it is all coaching, the guys we do have do not fit this system either- fitting a system is not something that should deter a change.

The last sentence of your post is very incriminating. We should not be hiring guys to be OC's who only had called plays at a.) small-time school b.)in a different system c) many years ago. That type of on-the-job training is setting the program up to fail.

We have been hearing this same BS for 4 years. How many years do you think it takes to not have a bad offense? This offense has fundamental issues, and making an internal hire of someone that needs to learn on the job is not going to fix it.

[cyatheart]

This is 100 percent true, I know its tough when you are having trouble getting things going but it seemed like we just keep grinding away doing the same things. Or he goes away from things that work, for instance, the diamond formation with Horne in the backfield that hit for the big play at TCU. Where was that the rest of the year? Do we only have that one play out of it? Was that just a package developed for JB? IDK...

In his defense, he had to go with 3 different QB's. That couldn't have helped his rhythm with playcalling or getting familiar with what each QB (who has a different skill set) bring in different situations.

It is amazing, several games this year we come out with guns blazing, unpredictable, really playing well. It's like when Mess has time to think about it for a week he comes up with some really good stuff to start off the game, but then we get through the first 25 plays or so, and we get really predictable really quickly. There is never any real commitment to the run game and I think Bruns said it well after the game, the offense is just really predictable at times.

[brianhos]

You guys sound like Hawk fans.