Michigan admits football team hasn't kept workout logs

[drunkincy]

By the looks of their record it appears they never even practiced. HAHAH

[Clones85']

1. Michigan is indeed worse - they've had only two wins this year (same as last)against BCS conference teams, and had to nip ND and Indiana to do that. Their defense is much worse. Last Sat. they were absolutely pounded by a mediocre Wisc. team., and the team looked unspirited and unmotivated. That's on the coach.

2. Lloyd Carr was a tremendous recruiter - always in the top two of the Big Ten, and very high nationally every year. He left an absolute stockpile of talented players in Ann Arbor. Conversely, most predicted tough early times for Johnson at GT (who has nowhere near the speed or talent that RR was given) until he recruited players for his system, but he sold it and coached it to his existing players - something RR hasn't been able to do.

3. RR brags about his team GPA - but cannot submit documents to prove it. Coaches are arguing on the sidelines during games. Players are texting about getting into it with their coaches. Now he can't even keep and turn in simple, elementary records about workouts.

I'm thinking this is just like the Dan Hawkins scenario - both coaches owe their success at their previous school to their top assistant who stayed behind, and are in over their heads at their new schools .

Tornado Man,

There is no logical way you can say that Michigan is worse this year then last year. It's not even comparable. Last year's team would not have almost beat Iowa or Michigan St.

Lloyd Carr was a tremendous recruiter but he didn't have 5 star talent at every position! He only signed 3 five star players that ended up playing for Rich Rod. I know 3 is good during that time period but let's not act like Michigan was a top 5 recruiting school because they were not

You are dead wrong on Johnson at GT. He had more players that fit HIS system that RR has that fit his. Give Rich Rod 2 more years and he will be just fine. Great? I don't know but he didn't forget how to coach all of a sudden

[Tornado man]

Tornado Man,

There is no logical way you can say that Michigan is worse this year then last year. It's not even comparable. Last year's team would not have almost beat Iowa or Michigan St.

Lloyd Carr was a tremendous recruiter but he didn't have 5 star talent at every position! He only signed 3 five star players that ended up playing for Rich Rod. I know 3 is good during that time period but let's not act like Michigan was a top 5 recruiting school because they were not

You are dead wrong on Johnson at GT. He had more players that fit HIS system that RR has that fit his. Give Rich Rod 2 more years and he will be just fine. Great? I don't know but he didn't forget how to coach all of a sudden

Clones85 -
I always enjoy your posts but we really disagree on this one.
Michigan last year beat #9 Wisky - they have no win close to that this year. The wins against two directional Mich. schools and Delaware State don't count.
Johnson inherited players of average talent recruited for a pro-style offense - how on earth can you say he had more players that fit his system?
No way RR lasts 4 years - he may not survive this one.

[Clones85']

It's not that Michigan has beaten better teams it's that they have looked slightly better doing it. They have looked awful the last 5 weeks but still looked better than last year. No way last years team goes into Iowa City and Lansing and almost comes away with a victory.

Paul Johnson is a great coach. Probably top 10 in the country. But he came into GT with a mobile QB and some really great RB's. He was able to run the option from day one. He didn't come to GT with Ryan Mallet as his number one and have to adjust. Huge difference. That and he gets to play against teams like Duke in the ACC : )

[Tre4ISU]

This. And he won't turn it down...again.

How about Jim Harbaugh back to Mich.

Brian Kelly will be Michigan's next head coach when and if they need one.

This is Michigan's own fault. It was a ridiculous hire in the first place.

If they are willing to give the guy 5-6 years to make this team what it is supposed to be, then it was a good hire. But everyone knew that they would just flip out if they weren't elite in 2 years.

They hired a coach that runs a completely different system than what they have traditionally run. It takes a long time to change that much, and if they weren't willing to give him time, they shouldn't have hired him.

Its the same thing that happened at Nebraska with Callahan. They ran run/option for 50 years, and then hired a west coast passing offensive coach, and expected the world in two years. its impossible.

1st: Michigan is not worse this year

2nd: They are not 5 star players at every position

3rd: Florida had Zook and while he is a horrible coach he did get all 5 star players. Easy situation for Meyer to come in and win at. Kelly is the best coach in football IMO so can't compare another coach to him. Paul Johnson is a great coach who was very fortunate that GT had the pieces in place to run the triple option. Michigan did not have the pieces in place to run the spread. Remember Rich Rod had Mallett but he transfered because he knew the offense wouldn't fit his game

Listen I don't think Rich Rod is a good coach but he isn't as bad as some say either. Look at what he did at WV. You have to give him 4 years IMO to be successful

1. Les Miles would be the next coach at Michigan.

2. Harbaugh is not welcome at Michigan due to prior comments about the program

3. See #1

4. This was the only play they had at the time. No other coach in the NCAA had shown the results RR had and was available.

5. Correct.


Michigan did not hire RR with the expectation that they would be an elite program in two years. He is not going anywhere unless these investigations turn into something big. They won't because they are Michigan and apparently the logs have been turned in and the problem is supposedly resolved. To the guy who said Lloyd left Michigan with a ton of talent. Where is this talent? The defense has none. You realize they start a walk on RS Freshmann at safety right? Lloyd left nothing there. They also lost QBs to other schools with the change in systems. People have to realize this isn't just an ordinary transition. This offense went from one extreme to another. The offense has shown dramatic improvement this year. The defense on the other hand is terrible. Look at the secondary. They are two deep at CB. TWO DEEP. One of them is a converted safety. The LBs are not good. The bright spot is Brandon Graham. He is th eonly tuelly great player they have on that side. The rest of the team is still young. Look at every place RR has been. He has had success everywhere in time. It takes time. Don't compare it to here. It is very different.

If Michigan hired RR with the expectation they would be great in 2 years, they messed up. He NEEDS four to be back where they once were. He needs classes real bad. This one looks good so far, but it takes time to develop a defense outof high school. The QBs are freshman. They don't have a ton of talent around them and the Oline is medicre at best. I will be shocked if RR isn't there next year.

[Tre4ISU]

Clones85 -
I always enjoy your posts but we really disagree on this one.
Michigan last year beat #9 Wisky - they have no win close to that this year. The wins against two directional Mich. schools and Delaware State don't count.
Johnson inherited players of average talent recruited for a pro-style offense - how on earth can you say he had more players that fit his system?
No way RR lasts 4 years - he may not survive this one.

Where did Wisconsin end up? If I am not mistaken they were not a great team. Don't forget that team also lost to Toledo. They got killed by a bad ND team. They are a lot better this year. They lack the maturity to play 60 mins right now. They have been in every game at halftime. They were not last year. You are just another Michigan hater who would love to see RR fail. Trust me, he will be there for 4 years based on performance. If he is let go, it will be these other things. I can respect the latter.

[Tre4ISU]

1. Michigan is indeed worse - they've had only two wins this year (same as last)against BCS conference teams, and had to nip ND and Indiana to do that. Their defense is much worse. Last Sat. they were absolutely pounded by a mediocre Wisc. team., and the team looked unspirited and unmotivated. That's on the coach.

2. Lloyd Carr was a tremendous recruiter - always in the top two of the Big Ten, and very high nationally every year. He left an absolute stockpile of talented players in Ann Arbor. Conversely, most predicted tough early times for Johnson at GT (who has nowhere near the speed or talent that RR was given) until he recruited players for his system, but he sold it and coached it to his existing players - something RR hasn't been able to do.

3. RR brags about his team GPA - but cannot submit documents to prove it. Coaches are arguing on the sidelines during games. Players are texting about getting into it with their coaches. Now he can't even keep and turn in simple, elementary records about workouts.

I'm thinking this is just like the Dan Hawkins scenario - both coaches owe their success at their previous school to their top assistant who stayed behind, and are in over their heads at their new schools .

You are very good at leaving out facts that contradict your point.

The defense was terrible both years. Will not argue that. A lot of that was due to the fact Lloyd did not recruit **** for talent on the defensive side of the ball in his last few years. All of Michigan's offensive playmakers left before RR got there. The fact that RR is at Michigan is the cause for all of this. Do you think he coaches different now than he did at WV? I don't. I just don't know how some people cannnot see that this team is better this year than last. They lose by 20 at Kinnick last year and Lose by 20 at East Lansing.

If you cannot figure out the offensive struggles on your own then I will not explain it.

[Tornado man]

Where did Wisconsin end up? If I am not mistaken they were not a great team. Don't forget that team also lost to Toledo. They got killed by a bad ND team. They are a lot better this year. They lack the maturity to play 60 mins right now. They have been in every game at halftime. They were not last year. You are just another Michigan hater who would love to see RR fail. Trust me, he will be there for 4 years based on performance. If he is let go, it will be these other things. I can respect the latter.

Good god. What team have you been watching this year? RR has taken 100 rich years of Michigan tradition and destroyed it in less than two. They will end the season with ONE Big Ten win. ONE! They are a program now on a level with Indiana! Their defense is horrible. RR hand-picked Robinson to coach the D, and now will probably fire him as the fall guy. It has now become a grab-bag program, with no direction.
Amd, there are whispers that Forcier will be jumping ship. What then?
Michigan used to playing for Big Ten titles, national titles, and top bowl games under Schembechler, Moeller, and Carr. Now they are little brother in their own state to MSU.

[Tre4ISU]

Good god. What team have you been watching this year? RR has taken 100 rich years of Michigan tradition and destroyed it in less than two. They will end the season with ONE Big Ten win. ONE! They are a program now on a level with Indiana! Their defense is horrible. RR hand-picked Robinson to coach the D, and now will probably fire him as the fall guy. It has now become a grab-bag program, with no direction.
Amd, there are whispers that Forcier will be jumping ship. What then?
Michigan used to playing for Big Ten titles, national titles, and top bowl games under Schembechler, Moeller, and Carr. Now they are little brother in their own state to MSU.

I woudn't lecture me about Michigan tradition. Where are these rumors of Forcier jumping ship? I bet they are very solid sources, similar to Michael Wilbons. If he leaves, then Denard Robinson will be the QB. This team lead the Big Ten in scoring for awhile. Last years team was lucky to manage to get a first down every once in awhile. Was that Michigan tradition so great when they lost to App St.? That was the low point of this program. Go ask any college football expert which team was better. this year's or last years. I gaurentee 99 percent say this years. I have seen every game. I have followed the prgram for the past 10 years. It's funny you mention Moeller. I don't know what you expected Michigan to be like this year but I do know that the reasonable Michigan supporters expected to be right around this point this year.

I have not heard any Forcier rumors. If he leaves, I will change my tune because it says something about the manner things are being done. I don't know how mentally tough he is, but if he does leave which I highly doubt will happen, I will be doing some more research into this program and how RR is doing things.

Tornado Man-check out mgoblog.com. The lead blogger is a pretty realistic guy who thinks along the same lines as me as far as expectations. I never thought this team was going to be great this year. The defense is very bad, but like I said, Carr left nothing.

[Tre4ISU]

Just looked into Tate info. No indication he wants out with the excitement he is showing.

[Tornado man]

The defense was terrible both years. Will not argue that. A lot of that was due to the fact Lloyd did not recruit **** for talent on the defensive side of the ball in his last few years. All of Michigan's offensive playmakers left before RR got there.

This is simply not true. In fact, Lloyd Carr was the best recruiter of talent in the Big Ten, and left RR a stockpile of it. Here are some facts:

Rivals recruiting rankings of Michigan during Carr's last four years

2004 - #5 in nation - first in the Big Ten
2005 - #6 in nation - first in the Big Ten
2006 - #13 in nation - third in the Big Ten
2007 - #12 in nation - first in the Big Ten

Simple fact - Carr dominated the Big Ten in recruiting, and left the cupboard full for RR. Where has it all gone? RR had the most talent in the conference to work with, and has one conference win this year to show for it.

[Tre4ISU]

This is simply not true. In fact, Lloyd Carr was the best recruiter of talent in the Big Ten, and left RR a stockpile of it. Here are some facts:

Rivals recruiting rankings of Michigan during Carr's last four years

2004 - #5 in nation - first in the Big Ten
2005 - #6 in nation - first in the Big Ten
2006 - #13 in nation - third in the Big Ten
2007 - #12 in nation - first in the Big Ten

Simple fact - Carr dominated the Big Ten in recruiting, and left the cupboard full for RR. Where has it all gone? RR had the most talent in the conference to work with, and has one conference win this year to show for it.

Are you going to base the talent level of a program on the rankings coming out of high school or the talent on the field?

[Tre4ISU]

Look at the 06 and 07 classes

Not too many of these guys from Lloyds last two classes have been world beaters. I will not say the classes didn't look good, I do however, think that the talent evalutation by the Carr staff had some holes. There was significant attrition when RR came in whether it be philosophy or change in general. It is late so I am not going to see who is still on the roster but I would bet a fair sum of money almost half of these guys are not still on the roster. Now, that may have to do with the way RR coaches but once again, I find it hard to believe he is coaching different now than he has in the past. Only nine of these guys have been large contributors this year and some are not in the position recruited. That is not a good a good number of juniors and seniors. I have always believed on the defensive side of the ball, recruiting is basically the same from system to system by position but as I look at those two classes I see guys that were moved to positions because of the weakness there and therefor taking depth away. There are a couple lineman in those classes that have turned out to be serviceable, however they have not been great. Donvan Warren and Brandon Graham along with Brown and Minor have been great but the RBs have not been healthy. If you go watch tape of these games and listen to players comments, this is not scheme related. This is execution. Watch the linebackers on run plays. They make incorrect reads and hit incorrect gaps constantly. There is a safety playing corner. A safety playing LB. A corner playing safety. A walkon RS freshman at another safety. The Dline is all young with the exception of BG. There's a lot of guys that haven't played and some guys not even on the team.Neither class was full. I don't know the reason for these guys not being what they should be. Maybe it's coaching. The weakness of this team is not the offense. RR is an offense guy, not defense, therefor he needs to have a great DCoord and I am not sure he has that. What I am sure of is that in time RR has had success everywhere he has gone and I don't see a reason not to believe he will there. The offense this year is good enough to compete with anyone in the Big Ten on the right day but you cannot expect a freshman QB to step in and carry a team on both sides of the field. I don't know that this will turn around, but I sure expect it to.

[Tre4ISU]

For the record I will always say RR's biggest mistake was not retaining Ron English. Without a doubt a huge mistake.