7/6 Cap City games

[jbhtexas]

I think you should take it one step further and just start applying for some MBB coaching positions since you know what's best for the players. Sheesh.

For some strange and bizzare reason, this "argument" isn't swaying me to your view on this matter.

Nevertheless, I do appreciate your concern for my professional future...

[BryceC]

I deleted that part because I thought it didn't help my argument 30 minutes before you replied. That's bizarre.

Regardless, apparently McDermott is on my side since he lets the players play in it. I find it amusing you didn't reply to that. Your "argument" isn't really much of one either.

[cyismydog]

Why don't you guys take this to PM?

[jbhtexas]

Regardless, apparently McDermott is on my side since he lets the players play in it. I find it amusing you didn't reply to that. Your "argument" isn't really much of one either.

My "argument" is simply how ISU plays on the floor, particularly in the Big 12. ISU's Big 12 play hasn't been very good for the last three years, and with one exception, hasn't been very stellar back to the early 2000's. I know there are many, many issues involved in that, but I think summer "conditioning" has at least something to do with it. Significant player particiaption in the CCL is one common thing that runs through all those teams. You disagree, and that's fine.

As far as GMac, quite simply, he hasn't yet posted a winning season in the Big 12. Perhaps he is still learning the Big 12 as well. Just sayin'... Hopefully, this will be the year for a winning Big 12 season.

So, this upcoming season, lets check out a few things that might provide some insight into this issue. Lucca is playing in a different league. So, early in the season, let's watch if Lucca seems to be developmentally and fundamentally ahead, level, or behind the others who played in CCL. When playing early pre-conference games against major and mid-major teams, let's see how ISU looks developmentally and fundamentally against those teams. Let's see how ISU fares in early Big 12 play...will they be on par with the competition right away, or will it take them several games to "catch up"?

[CloneAggie]

So, this upcoming season, lets check out a few things that might provide some insight into this issue. Lucca is playing in a different league. So, early in the season, let's watch if Lucca seems to be developmentally and fundamentally ahead, level, or behind the others who played in CCL. When playing early pre-conference games against major and mid-major teams, let's see how ISU looks developmentally and fundamentally against those teams. Let's see how ISU fares in early Big 12 play...will they be on par with the competition right away, or will it take them several games to "catch up"?

How would you possibly be able to evaluate this? Let us suppose that you could provide a scale to your "developmental/fundamental level". Let us scale it from 1 to 100 (with 100 being the best with no improvement possible).

How will you be able to tell if individual players are better, the same, or worse from participating in (or not participating in) the CCL? What will you be able to tell me if Lucca went from a 70 to a 80 while Eikmeyer went from a 55 to a 60 Would you be able to tell me that Lucca's summer program was better than Eikmeyer's? Not really, because Lucca might have went to a 85 if he was in Eikmeyer's summer program and Eikmeyer might have only made it to a 57 if in Lucca's. The point is there are too many things for which you cannot control to make the comparisons you want to make.

[AIT]

So, this upcoming season, lets check out a few things that might provide some insight into this issue. Lucca is playing in a different league. So, early in the season, let's watch if Lucca seems to be developmentally and fundamentally ahead, level, or behind the others who played in CCL. When playing early pre-conference games against major and mid-major teams, let's see how ISU looks developmentally and fundamentally against those teams. Let's see how ISU fares in early Big 12 play...will they be on par with the competition right away, or will it take them several games to "catch up"?

In the summer before Morgan's last year, Stinson and Blalock both went home instead of playing in the CCL. Do you suppose that year would've turned out better if they had stuck around Ames instead of doing their own thing?

[CyinCo]

My "argument" is simply how ISU plays on the floor, particularly in the Big 12. ISU's Big 12 play hasn't been very good for the last three years, and with one exception, hasn't been very stellar back to the early 2000's. I know there are many, many issues involved in that, but I think summer "conditioning" has at least something to do with it. Significant player particiaption in the CCL is one common thing that runs through all those teams. You disagree, and that's fine.

As far as GMac, quite simply, he hasn't yet posted a winning season in the Big 12. Perhaps he is still learning the Big 12 as well. Just sayin'... Hopefully, this will be the year for a winning Big 12 season.

So, this upcoming season, lets check out a few things that might provide some insight into this issue. Lucca is playing in a different league. So, early in the season, let's watch if Lucca seems to be developmentally and fundamentally ahead, level, or behind the others who played in CCL. When playing early pre-conference games against major and mid-major teams, let's see how ISU looks developmentally and fundamentally against those teams. Let's see how ISU fares in early Big 12 play...will they be on par with the competition right away, or will it take them several games to "catch up"?

You are really making a ridiculous assertion here. Add to that you now believe you'll be able to tell if a player, Lucca, is better for not participating in the CCL. How, exactly, will you do that? Aren't there a zillion other variables involved? Wouldn't you need a statistical sample to actually draw a conclusion?

Do you also realize that CCL is only a small fraction of their summer? Do you realize that our team also plays daily pick-up games at State Gym? Are you suggesting that is bad for their development as well? Because the State Gym games are far more numerous than the CCL games.

CCL isn't hurting anyone unless someone actually gets hurt. To believe anything else is silly.

[Cydkar]

I'm glad I'm not alone in recognizing the absurdity.

[jbhtexas]

You are really making a ridiculous assertion here. Add to that you now believe you'll be able to tell if a player, Lucca, is better for not participating in the CCL. How, exactly, will you do that? Aren't there a zillion other variables involved? Wouldn't you need a statistical sample to actually draw a conclusion?

No, there's nothing ridiculous about player evaluation, and there really aren't a zillion variables involved. That's why athletes in many sports (including basketball) go through well-regulated training regimens during their off-season, because certain training activities are known to be more beneficial in improving performance than others.

Do you also realize that CCL is only a small fraction of their summer? Do you realize that our team also plays daily pick-up games at State Gym? Are you suggesting that is bad for their development as well? Because the State Gym games are far more numerous than the CCL games.

I used to play in those pick State Gym summe pick-up games back in the late '80s and early '90's (rec center too). This is my recollection, but it seemed that there were far fewer MBB players who stayed around the campus during the summers back then, at least compared to the way it apparently is now. I remember one summer when Justus Thigpen did stay around. Nobody could really guard him or make him play defense. He was just too gifted, and he could score at will. However, he was a really nice guy, and and he tried get those who played with him involved, and he cut some slack to the people he guarded.

I am suggesting that there are better venues for player development than CCL and State Gym. Whether our players have the opportunity and means to use those venues is another story.

[CloneAggie]

No, there's nothing ridiculous about player evaluation, and there really aren't a zillion variables involved. That's why athletes in many sports (including basketball) go through well-regulated training regimens during their off-season, because certain training activities are known to be more beneficial in improving performance than others.

You weren't suggesting simple player evaluation. You were suggesting that you could/would/might be able to say that Lucca progressed more because of his summer program than if he would have had the same summer program as the guys participating in the CCL. This involves comparing before and after between players, when the players didn't participate in the same activities. Even if you are able to do that objectively, you still wouldn't know if Lucca would have progressed more or less had he participated in the CCL versus what he is participating in. That is the absurdity.

Now, maybe you can perfectly clone the players and have them do both...

[Cydkar]

"I am suggesting that there are better venues for player development than CCL and State Gym."

Nobody in the world would argue that.

[jbhtexas]

You weren't suggesting simple player evaluation. You were suggesting that you could/would/might be able to say that Lucca progressed more because of his summer program than if he would have had the same summer program as the guys participating in the CCL. This involves comparing before and after between players, when the players didn't participate in the same activities. Even if you are able to do that objectively, you still wouldn't know if Lucca would have progressed more or less had he participated in the CCL versus what he is participating in. That is the absurdity.

Good coaches have expectations for off-season improvement, and they evaluate how the players do versus expectations. The evaluation is likely subjective in some regards, but nevertheless, it is made.

As I recall, Lucca stayed in Ames last summer, part of which entailed playing in the CCL, and the coaches could evaluate how he improved doing that. This year, he is spending his summer playing in an overseas league, and the coaches will again evaluate his improvement doing that. Why is evaluating how the same player fares in two different "training regimens" (so to speak) absurdity?

[CyGuy33]

The CCL is a very small factor into what these coaches think about heading into the summer. It is a place where the kids can go get a run in two or three times a week against some have way decent competition.

The kids are in town because:
A) Summer School - with NCAA Regulations in place summer school is a must for most of our players
B) Conditioning with our strenght staff, this is the best time of year for our players to get in the weight room and build a base for next year
C) You can keep an eye on them and remain in contact with your players.


H) CCL League.

They will get runs in over the course of the summer no matter if they are in Des Moines or if they are in the Bronx. This is not a training regime, this really isn't a focus of training for the coaches. It is something to keep these kids on the floor.

[CloneAggie]

Good coaches have expectations for off-season improvement, and they evaluate how the players do versus expectations. The evaluation is likely subjective in some regards, but nevertheless, it is made.

As I recall, Lucca stayed in Ames last summer, part of which entailed playing in the CCL, and the coaches could evaluate how he improved doing that. This year, he is spending his summer playing in an overseas league, and the coaches will again evaluate his improvement doing that. Why is evaluating how the same player fares in two different "training regimens" (so to speak) absurdity?

What you are stating here is different from what you stated before. Previously, you said, "So, early in the season, let's watch if Lucca seems to be developmentally and fundamentally ahead, level, or behind the others who played in CCL." This is comparing two different players in two different regimens. Again, this is absurd because it would be nearly impossible to do and assign the cause of the "ahead, level, or behind" to participation in the CCL.

As for what you are talking about in the quoted post, it isn't absurd to think a coach may be able do this evaluation. It is absurd for you to think any of us could do it. Even so, the coach cannot be sure how the player would have developed if the second year's training regimen would have been the same as the first. Maybe the continuity and consistency would have allowed the player to develop even more if the second year's regimen was the same as the first year's.