Maybe McD needs to have a hard look at his staff?

[Wesley]

For one thing, we're not in Miami, Boston or Mississippi. For another...how long did it take for Dana Altman to start bringing in "Creighton type talent"?

Not sure why you put "Butler" and "talent" in the same sentence, though. I think they have one Top 100 guy...ever.

But Butler plays like a well oiled team. It may take only one Top 100 person if you have a coordinated and thoughtful team.

[Aclone]

Uhhh... WHAT? So if Brackins comes back we'll have AT LEAST as much talent as our EE team? That is completely ridiculous. I'm sorry, even a huge homer has to see that statement is beyond the pale.

Talent? Yes. I didn't say anything about experience. Or even cohesiveness. Both of those are yet to be seen. But talent--most certainly.

Let's see. What were the prominent players? I suppose I should liike beyond the simple Fizer-Tinsley matchus...

Marcus Fizer = Craig Brackins
Easy. It remains to be seen whether CB will match (or exceed) Marcus' junior season, but I'd say his soph season was slightly ahead of Marcus' soph season.

Jamaal Tinsley = Chris Colvin
Remember, we (or I) said talent, and in the long run, Colvin might prove to be even better than Tinsley. But the talent is probably equal. At least. How it proves out is yet to be seen--just like Tinsley when he signed. JT averaged 11 ppg, 6.6 apg 2.6 spg that season.

Michael Nurse = Diante Garrett
Sure, Diate needs to continue to step up his game, become more consistent. But the talent is equal. At the least. Mike averaged 12.5 ppg that year. I should note that perhaps the most important aspect that Mike (and Kantrail) added to that team was a secondary ballhandler.

Stevie Johnson < Marquis Gilstrap
Sure, Stevie had a ton of heart, and is a great guy, always smiling. But this one isn't even close. Stevie averaged 9.1 ppg. I suspect that Marquis might better that.

Kantrail Horton = Scott Christopherson, Lucca Staiger or Wes Eikmeier
Just guessing who to stick here. Any one of these guys might match Kantrail's 8.7 ppg. Of course, Lucca did average 8.2 ppg this year, but that wasn't Kantrail's only contribution. Perhaps I should have slotted Garrett here. By the way, considering the comparison, it's ironic that Kantrail was key to landing Marquis.

Paul Shirley < Jamie Vanderbeken
Paul averaged 7.7ppg and 4.4 rpg. Anyone care to figure out Jamie's stats over the latter part of the season? Doesn't matter, because on talent, Jamie is well ahead (outside the classroom).

Martin Rancik < Justin Hamilton
I liked Martin, but this one isn't really close, either. And if JH can make even a moderate step up, he's easily surpass Martin's 5.5ppg and 3.8 rpg.

Beyond that, we're down to the likes of Brandon Hawkins, Thomas Watkins, and Richard Evans, who all averaged 3.2 ppg or less. I already have Christopherson and Eikmeier on the board as wild cards, and still have a Buckley and a Pomlee up my sleeve.

Y'know, generally I dislike explaining the obvious, even when someone is...being negative in their response. And yes, in this case, if you wanted to evaluate the respective teams, you might shift the matchups around a little. For one thing, perhaps Tinsley should be matched against fellow juco Gilstrap.

However, my point was as to the respective talent, which was the point that I made in the first place, and I'd have to say that I'm pleased that you made me realize that next year's team might even be slightly more talented than that '99-01 squad.

And base talent was the argument that was being made.

And I'll also point of that that Elite Eight team was coming off a 15-15 season the year before. I can't say what changes and maturity this team will make and embrace in the ensuing months. Or how the newcomers will fare. But it's obvious that if CB returns, the talent is equal to that '99-'00 team.

[kg-cyclone]

The door will definitely be open if CB returns...Hopefully, we can step through it.

[cyco2000]

Talent? Yes. I didn't say anything about experience. Or even cohesiveness. Both of those are yet to be seen. But talent--most certainly.

Let's see. What were the prominent players? I suppose I should liike beyond the simple Fizer-Tinsley matchus...

Marcus Fizer = Craig Brackins
Easy. It remains to be seen whether CB will match (or exceed) Marcus' junior season, but I'd say his soph season was slightly ahead of Marcus' soph season.

Jamaal Tinsley = Chris Colvin
Remember, we (or I) said talent, and in the long run, Colvin might prove to be even better than Tinsley. But the talent is probably equal. At least. How it proves out is yet to be seen--just like Tinsley when he signed. JT averaged 11 ppg, 6.6 apg 2.6 spg that season.

Michael Nurse = Diante Garrett
Sure, Diate needs to continue to step up his game, become more consistent. But the talent is equal. At the least. Mike averaged 12.5 ppg that year. I should note that perhaps the most important aspect that Mike (and Kantrail) added to that team was a secondary ballhandler.

Stevie Johnson < Marquis Gilstrap
Sure, Stevie had a ton of heart, and is a great guy, always smiling. But this one isn't even close. Stevie averaged 9.1 ppg. I suspect that Marquis might better that.

Kantrail Horton = Scott Christopherson, Lucca Staiger or Wes Eikmeier
Just guessing who to stick here. Any one of these guys might match Kantrail's 8.7 ppg. Of course, Lucca did average 8.2 ppg this year, but that wasn't Kantrail's only contribution. Perhaps I should have slotted Garrett here. By the way, considering the comparison, it's ironic that Kantrail was key to landing Marquis.

Paul Shirley < Jamie Vanderbeken
Paul averaged 7.7ppg and 4.4 rpg. Anyone care to figure out Jamie's stats over the latter part of the season? Doesn't matter, because on talent, Jamie is well ahead (outside the classroom).

Martin Rancik < Justin Hamilton
I liked Martin, but this one isn't really close, either. And if JH can make even a moderate step up, he's easily surpass Martin's 5.5ppg and 3.8 rpg.

Beyond that, we're down to the likes of Brandon Hawkins, Thomas Watkins, and Richard Evans, who all averaged 3.2 ppg or less. I already have Christopherson and Eikmeier on the board as wild cards, and still have a Buckley and a Pomlee up my sleeve.

Y'know, generally I dislike explaining the obvious, even when someone is...being negative in their response. And yes, in this case, if you wanted to evaluate the respective teams, you might shift the matchups around a little. For one thing, perhaps Tinsley should be matched against fellow juco Gilstrap.

However, my point was as to the respective talent, which was the point that I made in the first place, and I'd have to say that I'm pleased that you made me realize that next year's team might even be slightly more talented than that '99-01 squad.

And base talent was the argument that was being made.

And I'll also point of that that Elite Eight team was coming off a 15-15 season the year before. I can't say what changes and maturity this team will make and embrace in the ensuing months. Or how the newcomers will fare. But it's obvious that if CB returns, the talent is equal to that '99-'00 team.

If we're evaluating just individual talent, I guess you could be right. Call me neagive, bitchy, whatever, but I don't see the sum of next year's parts to equal the sum of the EE team. Is that coaching, heart, passion, toughness, I don't know. I see something that is missing.

Hope they prove me wrong next year!

[cyclonenum1]

Fine be concerned with it but it's reality. Recruiting is not a turn key operation.

Kansas, Okla, OSU, TT, Tex, A&M, Mizzou, KSU all have better established recruiting pipelines unlike us. You can't expect Mac to come in and out recruit them boys on day 1.

This is something I have mentioned in previous posts that it appears McDermott has not understood...the importance of building a pipeline to areas that produce multiple top prospects every year. He has not done that to date.

The analogy is that he is using the shotgun approach to recruiting as opposed to the rifle approach. Johnny used the rifle...targeted to Michigan and Illinois. Tim Floyd used the rifle approach targeting Louisiana (Fizer and Willoughby). McDermott is all over the place.

[Cydkar]

Talent? Yes. I didn't say anything about experience. Or even cohesiveness. Both of those are yet to be seen. But talent--most certainly.

Let's see. What were the prominent players? I suppose I should liike beyond the simple Fizer-Tinsley matchus...

Marcus Fizer = Craig Brackins
Easy. It remains to be seen whether CB will match (or exceed) Marcus' junior season, but I'd say his soph season was slightly ahead of Marcus' soph season.

Jamaal Tinsley = Chris Colvin
Remember, we (or I) said talent, and in the long run, Colvin might prove to be even better than Tinsley. But the talent is probably equal. At least. How it proves out is yet to be seen--just like Tinsley when he signed. JT averaged 11 ppg, 6.6 apg 2.6 spg that season.

Michael Nurse = Diante Garrett
Sure, Diate needs to continue to step up his game, become more consistent. But the talent is equal. At the least. Mike averaged 12.5 ppg that year. I should note that perhaps the most important aspect that Mike (and Kantrail) added to that team was a secondary ballhandler.

Stevie Johnson < Marquis Gilstrap
Sure, Stevie had a ton of heart, and is a great guy, always smiling. But this one isn't even close. Stevie averaged 9.1 ppg. I suspect that Marquis might better that.

Kantrail Horton = Scott Christopherson, Lucca Staiger or Wes Eikmeier
Just guessing who to stick here. Any one of these guys might match Kantrail's 8.7 ppg. Of course, Lucca did average 8.2 ppg this year, but that wasn't Kantrail's only contribution. Perhaps I should have slotted Garrett here. By the way, considering the comparison, it's ironic that Kantrail was key to landing Marquis.

Paul Shirley < Jamie Vanderbeken
Paul averaged 7.7ppg and 4.4 rpg. Anyone care to figure out Jamie's stats over the latter part of the season? Doesn't matter, because on talent, Jamie is well ahead (outside the classroom).

Martin Rancik < Justin Hamilton
I liked Martin, but this one isn't really close, either. And if JH can make even a moderate step up, he's easily surpass Martin's 5.5ppg and 3.8 rpg.

Beyond that, we're down to the likes of Brandon Hawkins, Thomas Watkins, and Richard Evans, who all averaged 3.2 ppg or less. I already have Christopherson and Eikmeier on the board as wild cards, and still have a Buckley and a Pomlee up my sleeve.

Y'know, generally I dislike explaining the obvious, even when someone is...being negative in their response. And yes, in this case, if you wanted to evaluate the respective teams, you might shift the matchups around a little. For one thing, perhaps Tinsley should be matched against fellow juco Gilstrap.

However, my point was as to the respective talent, which was the point that I made in the first place, and I'd have to say that I'm pleased that you made me realize that next year's team might even be slightly more talented than that '99-01 squad.

And base talent was the argument that was being made.

And I'll also point of that that Elite Eight team was coming off a 15-15 season the year before. I can't say what changes and maturity this team will make and embrace in the ensuing months. Or how the newcomers will fare. But it's obvious that if CB returns, the talent is equal to that '99-'00 team.

I disagree with much of this post. Especially since some of the guys that have never played a D1 game are being equated with some very salty ball players. You are basing the word talent on recruiting rankings.

[BigBake]

Tim Floyd used the rifle approach targeting Louisiana (Fizer and Willoughby). McDermott is all over the place.

Sorry...wrong....Floyd brough Willoughby with him and was already in on Fizer.

So do you want Mac to pick out one state and only look there?

[Aclone]

I disagree with much of this post. Especially since some of the guys that have never played a D1 game are being equated with some very salty ball players. You are basing the word talent on recruiting rankings.

I pay little or no attention to recruiting rankings.Aside from when they happen to agree with my own evaluation, of course.

[cyclonenum1]

Sorry...wrong....Floyd brough Willoughby with him and was already in on Fizer.

So do you want Mac to pick out one state and only look there?

So I'm "wrong" on what here?

I'll answer...I'm not wrong. I'm dead on correct. It is easy to see guys that have pipelines built...pipeline meaning they repeatedly get recruits from a particular area over and over. Orr clearly had that with Michigan...we got guys nearly every year from Michigan...Stevens, Grayer, Thompkins, Alexander, etc. Floyd mines Louisiana...when he was at ISU he brought Fizer and Willoughby from LA. Cato was at South Alabama so he was probably from the area since Mobile (location of South Alabama) is only about a 2 hour drive from New Orleans. Since he has been with USC he has continue this pipeline...he got Ryan Francis from LA (Louisiana not L.A. for Los Angeles) and this year's team has at least one LA player (Dwight Lewis).

McDermott needs to build a recruiting pipeline to a place with some talent...something he has not done but it looks like he is trying to do with Chicago / Illinois...a place that you can count on getting a good guy from nearly every year. At this point McDermott's approach has been totally scattered. Do you recruit only from your pipeline area? No...but it is the focus year in and year out...the guys you get from elsewhere round out the class.

[jhill]

So I'm "wrong" on what here?

I'll answer...I'm not wrong. I'm dead on correct. It is easy to see guys that have pipelines built...pipeline meaning they repeatedly get recruits from a particular area over and over. Orr clearly had that with Michigan...we got guys nearly every year from Michigan...Stevens, Grayer, Thompkins, Alexander, etc. Floyd mines Louisiana...when he was at ISU he brought Fizer and Willoughby from LA. Cato was at South Alabama so he was probably from the area since Mobile (location of South Alabama) is only about a 2 hour drive from New Orleans. Since he has been with USC he has continue this pipeline...he got Ryan Francis from LA (Louisiana not L.A. for Los Angeles) and this year's team has at least one LA player (Dwight Lewis).

McDermott needs to build a recruiting pipeline to a place with some talent...something he has not done but it looks like he is trying to do with Chicago / Illinois...a place that you can count on getting a good guy from nearly every year. At this point McDermott's approach has been totally scattered. Do you recruit only from your pipeline area? No...but it is the focus year in and year out...the guys you get from elsewhere round out the class.

I'd say McDermott has been hitting Wisconsin (specifically Milwaukee) and Minnesota pretty consistently. He's offered several guys from Minnesota, just hasn't signed any of them. I think he is more or less following your line of thinking, just hasn't had a lot of success (yet) doing so. Maybe he will have more luck in Illinois due to that being Robinson's stomping grounds.

[isunorth]

Sorry...wrong....Floyd brough Willoughby with him and was already in on Fizer.

So do you want Mac to pick out one state and only look there?

Don't need to pick one place, but having a couple go-to territories doesn't hurt. Especially if it's an area like Chicago that is rich with basketball talent.

[cyclonenum1]

I'd say McDermott has been hitting Wisconsin (specifically Milwaukee) and Minnesota pretty consistently. He's offered several guys from Minnesota, just hasn't signed any of them. I think he is more or less following your line of thinking, just hasn't had a lot of success (yet) doing so. Maybe he will have more luck in Illinois due to that being Robinson's stomping grounds.

I looked...Floyd has 3 kids from Louisiana on his roster this year at USC...that is a pipeline.

Personally, I don't view either Minnesota or Wisconsin as states that produce great talent on a regular basis. Illinois, however, does. Because of this, a pipeline to Illinois is smart...a pipeline to MN or WI is not...in my opinion.

[CycloneErik]

I looked...Floyd has 3 kids from Louisiana on his roster this year at USC...that is a pipeline.

Personally, I don't view either Minnesota or Wisconsin as states that produce great talent on a regular basis. Illinois, however, does. Because of this, a pipeline to Illinois is smart...a pipeline to MN or WI is not...in my opinion.

Fair enough. Illinois does seem like a better option. And Marquette apparently hasn't found Illinois on a map yet, so that helps

[BigBake]

So I'm "wrong" on what here?

Floyd did not recruit those players to ISU thru some pipeline. He was at UNO and those players had committed to him already. So his "pipeline" was roughly 50 miles. He now is recruiting that area because he has connections there.

Do you want me to list another 70 coaches that recruit nationally and pay more attention to talent then where a player is from.

Today's recruits are playing nationally (AAU, tournaments, camps, etc). That's where you gain exposure. An address is nothing more than where the coach goes to talk to the mom/dad.

You don't develop pipelines you develop connections. Comparing Macs connections to Floyds is foolishness.

[cyco2000]

Floyd did not recruit those players to ISU thru some pipeline. He was at UNO and those players had committed to him already. So his "pipeline" was roughly 50 miles. He now is recruiting that area because he has connections there.

Do you want me to list another 70 coaches that recruit nationally and pay more attention to talent then where a player is from.

Today's recruits are playing nationally (AAU, tournaments, camps, etc). That's where you gain exposure. An address is nothing more than where the coach goes to talk to the mom/dad.

You don't develop pipelines you develop connections. Comparing Macs connections to Floyds is foolishness.

I'd like to see 70 D1 coaches that recruit nationally over a certain geographic area.