Update from scout

**Cyclonepride** · 03-30-2009, 10:34 PM

Originally Posted by Stormin

Tim Floyd's first year, didn't he have Hoiberg and Co.? Then we had Willoughby and Cato plus Shaun Bankhead and Kenny Pratt the next two years. In Floyd's final year we had Fizer and only won 12 games I think. In LE's first year we finished about .500 or a bit below and then came Tinsley, Horton in year two. After Tinsley left we haven't been the same. Maybe that is why LE started drinking so heavily.

I'd take a few guys like that if we can find them!

**ajk4st8** · 03-30-2009, 10:34 PM

Originally Posted by CyinCo

Not sure if he took 4. He definately brought in Bankhead, Cato, and Willoughby in 1 season. I believe Pratt came in too so he would make 4. Now, I'll be first to admit that it is rare 4 guys work out as well as those 4 did. Floyd rolled the dice and won.

Cato and Willoughby were D1 transfers. South Alabama and New Orleans.

Willoughby might have had a non basketball year at IHCC

**Clones85'** · 03-30-2009, 10:35 PM

Originally Posted by Drive4cy

I'm glad McD is going the JUCO route. He's trying new things. We've had so many misses with HS kids lately, why not? JVB was a good JUCO pick-up last spring. Maybe we can get another contributor or two. We've had many successful JUCO's in this program in recent years, I never understood why when Greg took the job it was assumed we'd never go that route again.

He has brought in 5 JUCO's in 4 years. I have no problem with that. But it's not him trying new things

**Drive4cy** · 03-30-2009, 11:02 PM

Originally Posted by Clones85'

He has brought in 5 JUCO's in 4 years. I have no problem with that. But it's not him trying new things

Are you counting Haluska and Peterson in this equation? Because I don't. Scholarship players only. Two of the 3 were from his first class when he was desperate to field a roster out of necessity.

I count:

Mike Taylor
Corey McIntosh
JVB

**ajk4st8** · 03-30-2009, 11:08 PM

could be counting the 2 for next year.

**greatshu** · 03-31-2009, 09:25 AM

LE/Timmy come into a program that was in BAD shape. I was able to have conversation with Bill Fennelly about the shape our bball program was in when GMAC took over. He said it was just bad. We were left with nothing with bad images, rep, and possible NCAA violation.

Billy G @ Kentucky didn't start with nothing (good players like Patrick Patterson) and winning some games. Tom C @ Indiana started with worst team ever, and had one of the worst bball season of all time. Buzz W @ Marquette started out with good Tom C's player, and pretty good season.
It def takes 2-3 years to get your program going without any hurdles (i.e. your best player transferring every year).

**CycloneErik** · 03-31-2009, 09:31 AM

Originally Posted by cybsball20

I wasn't really an ISU fan yet back then but when did Floyd take four Juco's and who? Just curious, not trying to start crap... Did Floyd do it in year one or four?

Year two. It was his first recruiting class (well, jucos and transfers).

**kg-cyclone** · 03-31-2009, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by greatshu

LE/Timmy come into a program that was in BAD shape. I was able to have conversation with Bill Fennelly about the shape our bball program was in when GMAC took over. He said it was just bad. We were left with nothing with bad images, rep, and possible NCAA violation.

Billy G @ Kentucky didn't start with nothing (good players like Patrick Patterson) and winning some games. Tom C @ Indiana started with worst team ever, and had one of the worst bball season of all time. Buzz W @ Marquette started out with good Tom C's player, and pretty good season.
It def takes 2-3 years to get your program going without any hurdles (i.e. your best player transferring every year).

Should have leveled it like Crean did at Indiana...and completely start over...which means don't sign anybody (spring of 06 if I remember right). Have one terrible year, then offer playing time as a recruiting tool. Things snowballed...From an on the court view.

Mac kicked Taylor off the team. WJ probably doesn't transfer if Taylor is on the team. If WJ doesn't transfer, Brackins doesn't get near the number of shots he did, which means he isn't even on the NBA radar....

**mplscyclone** · 03-31-2009, 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by greatshu

LE/Timmy come into a program that was in BAD shape. I was able to have conversation with Bill Fennelly about the shape our bball program was in when GMAC took over. He said it was just bad. We were left with nothing with bad images, rep, and possible NCAA violation.

Billy G @ Kentucky didn't start with nothing (good players like Patrick Patterson) and winning some games. Tom C @ Indiana started with worst team ever, and had one of the worst bball season of all time. Buzz W @ Marquette started out with good Tom C's player, and pretty good season.
It def takes 2-3 years to get your program going without any hurdles (i.e. your best player transferring every year).

Yeah, but it's 3 years and it's not going at all. I don't think people are complaining about WJ leaving as much as they are about having players transfer who shouldn't have been getting offered scholarships at all. This really is inexcuseable if we can just "get" better talent as these guys leave.

You can also take Tubby Smith at Minnesota. Minnesota had it's share of big NCAA violations, and a bad coach that ran the program into the ground. 3years ago, ISU was AHEAD of Minnesota and as you described our situation wasn't in good shape.

So what happened when Tubby got there? Well in year 1 they went to the NIT, and in year 2 they went to the dance.

Now people say "well he's been known to bring in good recruits" but it's kind of obvious. That's what coaches at this level are expected to do.

When you look at Tubby's salary, his base was $600,000 two years, ago and $630,000 this past year. Obviously he has bonuses and things like that that put him more in the $2 million range, but still.

When you are coaching at this level, there is no more "Well he's McDermott and he's Tubby/Barnes/etc, so it's OK"

If that's OK, then we shouldn't be paying our coaches millions of dollars. If you pay something that's comparable to others at this level, then you are expected to perform at that level.

I am so tired of people making excuses. You cannot find a program that is considered good that had their coach NOT make any kind of postseason by year 3. When you factor in how much support ISU fans show to their team, and how they buy all of these tickets when the team stinks, we all deserve better.

This is BCS-division one basketball. It takes two years to build a postseason team even under bad conditions. You simply do not have 3-4 years to figure it out. You're supposed to have it figured out when offered the job.

For what we're paying, we aren't getting a lot out of it. If we were paying McDermott mid-major type of money then I'd give all of these excuses. If he was at UNI, no one would complain, but this is the Big 12 and I'm tired of being patient with this program.

**mplscyclone** · 03-31-2009, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by Drive4cy

Are you counting Haluska and Peterson in this equation? Because I don't. Scholarship players only. Two of the 3 were from his first class when he was desperate to field a roster out of necessity.

I count:

Mike Taylor
Corey McIntosh
JVB

Your argument makes it sound even worse. Instead of 5 JUCOS, it's 3 JUCOS and 2 walk-ons.

You also said he filled 2 because he was desperate. What are you going to call 3 and possibly 4?

**greatshu** · 03-31-2009, 09:56 AM

Some of the JUCO players are better than non-developed top 20 HS prospects. I remember watching C J Bruton (IHCC, was committed to ISU), and Pete Mickeal (IHCC, later went to Cincy and played for Huggins), they were so much better than some players who was supoosed to make immediate impact on their roster straight out of HS!

**psycln11** · 03-31-2009, 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by shildreth

I know you cant put all the stock into it but St peters, fordham and ISU.... Wish there were some bigger names under that list. Who knows how serious this is though.

Curry is transferring from Liberty to Duke!!

**johnsonjj** · 03-31-2009, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by cybsball20

Yup, when you get into the 3-4 JUCO's in one year territory you are scrapping the long haul for do or die... I am certainly hoping for DO.

Not all Juco's are the same...and I am not just talking talent wise. For example, Gilstrap is one-and-done unless by longshot we get the second year. I have heard that one of the potential Juco's may have 3 years remaining. If that is true, you have 4 jucos in a class, but spread over three years. Thus, it isn't all at once here then all gone at once. Some jucos contribute right a-way (i.e. Tinsley and I hope Gilstrap) but most of our jucos over the past 20 years were way better in their second year compared to their first.

I may be a minority, but even some of the guys that were just here one year does not mean they were a waste of a schollie. At minimum, they were practice fodder all year. Some of those guys were late adds (i.e. Mann), so it was "best available" which doesn't translate to always best. We were lucky not to have many injuries this year, so the depth wasn't as much of an issue, but we were trying to field a team.

Everyone talks about McDermott finally "getting it" about recruiting. The new assistant coach has changed our recruiting fortunes, and that seems to be the biggest difference, rather than a true change in philosophy from McD.