China vs U.S.

Cyclonepride · 05-12-2008, 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by chinapuck

China is no longer the true form of Communism...

That is my impression as well, though I think it might be difficult to define the exact form of government....it seems like a communist government, with capitalistic experiments going on all over the place.

superdorf · 05-12-2008, 08:43 PM

Originally Posted by Cyclonepride

A ground war on Chinese soil would seem to be a ridiculous proposition, but the fact of the matter is that with somewhat swift US command of the sea and air, the outcome would not be in doubt. I highly doubt that the US would seek to crush and occupy China. Just destroy enough to minimalize the threat, and set them back about 50 years. I'll reiterate that the US military, from a technology standpoint, is years ahead. We're talking USC vs. UNI.

I guess we will just have to disagree on this topic then...

If you haven't seen this yet, I ran across this again tonight when searching some China information, its pretty funny:
Flash » The End of the World

Cyclonepride · 05-12-2008, 08:48 PM

Originally Posted by superdorf

I guess we will just have to disagree on this topic then...

If you haven't seen this yet, I ran across this again tonight when searching some China information, its pretty funny:
Flash » The End of the World

Most of my thoughts come from a couple of books I have recently read on Sino-US relations, and possible future conflicts, especially in the context of a future struggle for oil and other resources. The scenarios that they seemed to think likely were intense and brief, and their reasoning made a lot of sense to me. The Japanese were fighting in China for how long? So I think we could agree that the US may not win a ground war on Chinese soil. My contention is that there would not be a ground invasion in any forseeable scenario.

Clone9 · 05-12-2008, 08:48 PM

Its my understanding that China has a huge division between the city and the country. The cities are quite cosmopolitan and westernized, and people have plenty of money; while the people living in the country are exceptionally poor and in really bad shape. I guess the divide keeps growing and there is concern from the gov't about dissent amongst the commoners. And no, China is definitely not a true communist state anymore, even if their politics still are.

I guess China has come a long way, and our assumptions are both correct and 100% incorrect at the same time....depending on which class of people you are talking about.

Oh, and I agree - a war simply won't happen, as our economies are too tied together. If it did though, it would be really bad news, even if we would be almost assured to "win".

Topshelf · 05-12-2008, 09:00 PM

They did build the damn. I haven't read much about it so can't comment too much on it. It's a crazy country right now. I would recommend reading "China Roads" to anybody that would like to read a book about China. A guy hitchhikes across Route 312 which travels across the entire country from Shanghai to the Western border of China.

Topshelf · 05-12-2008, 09:59 PM

Originally Posted by Clone9

Its my understanding that China has a huge division between the city and the country. The cities are quite cosmopolitan and westernized, and people have plenty of money; while the people living in the country are exceptionally poor and in really bad shape. I guess the divide keeps growing and there is concern from the gov't about dissent amongst the commoners. And no, China is definitely not a true communist state anymore, even if their politics still are.

I guess China has come a long way, and our assumptions are both correct and 100% incorrect at the same time....depending on which class of people you are talking about.

Oh, and I agree - a war simply won't happen, as our economies are too tied together. If it did though, it would be really bad news, even if we would be almost assured to "win".

Fantastic post. There is a large divide between city and country. That's one reason there is such cheap labor in the city. A migrant worker can make double what they would in the country (still seems like pennies to us). There is some dissent in the country but the government does a good job with it's propaganda so the country thinks they are doing well. The Chinese people have huge pride in their country. They believe they are doing things the right way.

weR138 · 05-13-2008, 07:24 AM

Originally Posted by weR138

100% different? There is freedom of religion in China? A minimum wage, what is it in US dollars? Eight hour work day? Please expound on the difference between my perception ( and the Dalai Lama's and Amnesty International's ) and the real China.

Still waiting for an answer to this...

cycloneace55 · 05-13-2008, 08:39 AM

I know people who have both benefitted from doing business with China and been stung by their questionable practices concerning international copyright laws. Questionable in the fact that they (chineese government and business) seem to ignore them when they see fit. China has improved their version of a free market economy over the years but still cling to the old communist mindsets that will keep the government regulating the freedoms that the people of China have. 6-4-1989 should be a date that highlights the fact that the governments grip on the freedoms enjoyed by most Americans has been slow to loosen. While a lot has happened since the Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 the government still limits access to the internet. To me that fact alone is indicitive of the governments "control" of the general populous.

As for a war with China, I don't see it happening. Just like a war with the Soviet Union in the 50s, 60s, and 70s I could see a "Cold War" based purely on political and social pressures/differences but the economies of both countries would be crippled by a shooting war. I forsee years and years of stick shaking and angry words exchanged between the governments but nothing of substance. Any changes in China's human rights polocies will have to come from within.

And a response to a comment on quick road building, just because its done faster does not mean its done better.

Phaedrus · 05-13-2008, 09:36 AM

I don't see how a war with China would be possible, much less advisable.

The Chinese gov't still executes political prisoners.

The Chinese gov't often bases non-political AND political executions based on how much they can get for someone's organs.

The Chinese gov't STILL suppresses free speech, political parties, and ESPECIALLY religion.

Basically, China is a weird kind of oligarchy, with several different epicenters of government. And like others have posted prior, WHICH China are you speaking of?

chengyushen · 05-13-2008, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by weR138

Still waiting for an answer to this...

Well, China is just starting to introduce the society security system, and minimum wage and unemployment benefit is part of it. Of course, it is just in its iniitial stage, and not as good as the similar system here. imo china still have a long way to go.

Eitht hour work day? not going to happen in china. but that is part of the reason china developsm fast.....

As for religion freedom, the number of chritians are booming in recent years, and the government is turning half blind to this, as long as it does not threat the itself. I have friends who are buddulism (not the same buddulism as DaLai Lama's )and they don;t have problem at all with the government...

cycloneryan · 05-13-2008, 10:37 AM

The two will never go to war because they are both very reliant on each other. Over the past 35 years our relationship with China has become as complex and important as any other country we deal with. Countries that sell to one another typically don't shoot at one another.

herbicide · 05-13-2008, 10:40 AM

A war with China makes about as much sense as a war with Japan right now.

Japan has a vastly different culture, and a strong economy too.

BryceC · 05-13-2008, 10:51 AM

The war would never happen. What we would need to do is wage a political and economic war - we sell a ton of grain to China, we borrow a lot of money and resources from China.

IMO, one of the biggest mistakes of the Clinton presidency was the changing of China to most favored nations trading status. That was a bad idea then and we're really suffering for it now.

cycloneace55 · 05-13-2008, 02:54 PM

The basis and emergance of Japan's economy can be a thread in and of itself, but alot of it has to do with the USA and our actions after WW2. One of the stipulations in the re-building of Japan was that they could not operate on a negative budget like we do. That and we as a country have never asked for the money we poured into that country back. (Germany too) Needless to say you can see the results.

I agree with Clinton being China's buddy (lap dog seemed too inflamatory)when it came to trade negotiations, they are completely skewed towards China.

copenhagen · 05-13-2008, 03:15 PM

apoligist or propagandist for china. China wants total control and to be a ruling superpower. Wake up or read Sun Tzu., which im sure u have. Why are the corporations are run by the Chinese generals and are very predatory, look at the panama canal and west coast ports all up and down the western hemisphere, being run and taken over by china. The one sided trade, 200 billion a year defiecet with China, the US has. Ofcourse like always, its the yuppie free trade traitors and mercanaries from USA selling out and giving everything to China.