Vatican: It's OK to believe in aliens

[CloneAggie]

Originally Posted by CycloneErik

Good question. My own question lacked some clarity.

I'm not exactly asking if it would be mandatory that the creator's first work would be to create someone to document the creation. As I'm thinking about that idea, it would be difficult for that someone to survive without a place to survive in. Didn't mean to make that sound so odd.

I'm more pointing to the Bible as a work 'whose' writing was guided by that creator. If that creator, who would be an eyewitness, left such a record, which recounted in an observable manner the act of creation, would that kind of sound like it meets the criteria that something must be observable? In a sense, scientific?

Did that make it clearer, or just use a lot more words? (I wish Icould be paid by the word? Man, that would be awesome!!!!)

What Kyle said above regarding the "literal account of creation found in Genesis" sums up my thoughts (and probably better than I could have summed them up myself).

[larrysarmy]

Originally Posted by Kyle

I personally don't believe due mostly to philosophical arguments along problem of evil type lines that I've explored a bit in previous threads that you've been involved in. I think such arguments can convincingly disprove they typical Christian worldview that includes a tri-omni god and eternal damnation. I'll readily admit that they cannot disprove all worldviews including a higher power. With regards to these other worldviews, I haven't seen any good reason to adopt them.

Fair enough Kyle...let me sum up why I write what I write, which ties into your reason of non-belief, via evil type lines, eternal damnation. And honestly, this is what I would of said if and when our schedules could jive to meet. Maybe will just save on gas here:)

Apologetics are fun...but they are circular in nature. Debates like this can be engaging, zesty and makes for good convo, at least to me. But my stance is one of eternal. And before you roll the eyes, hear me out.

--Has anyone ever REALLY explained the Gospel to you?---

Take away the cheesy TV preachers...spouting come to Jesus and you'll have health, wealth and prosperity..basically the Life Enhancement Plan. That is tired and played out...or nothing new under the sun, if you will. This concept has been repacked by thousands...Tony Robbins, Oprah, The Secret...and so on. Some may sneak a Bible reference here or there....but its weak at its core. Unfortunataley, the CHURCH...has picked up the scent and some are peddling this message...which creates confusion to those outside the Church (You'll see at end of this message)

The Biblical Gospel...at its core....is REPENTANCE and FAITH in Jesus Christ.

You see....the Bible says ALL men knows there is a GOD, including Kyle. There something deep down that says...yep, there's a God. But....it also says ALL men suppress the truth in unrightousness. Which was a byproduct of the Fall of Adam and when SIN entered the world. We told God NO, we'll do it our way.

HOWEVER, God gave us 2 things to know he's real and how to be made right with him.

1) Creation. You've heard this story before. How can you have a creation...without a creator. Plug in any analogy such as a watch, painting, ect.

2) Conscience. Con-with Science-knowledge You know, the impartial judge in your mind. God gave us the ability to know right from wrong, general speaking.

How do we know right from wrong. Evolutionary social relationships over millions of years? Nope.

God gave us the 10 Commandments. Take the test.

Ever lied?
Ever Stolen?
God always first in your life?
Take his name in vain?
Adultery? No? But Jesus says if you look with LUST you've already committed adultery in your heart.

That's only 5. I'm guessing you've broken those numerous times...JUST LIKE ME!

So...God says there will be JUDGEMENT day, in which all men will have to give an account. If he asks you, Kyle, based off of GOD's laws, the 10 Commandments. Are you guilty or innocent? Based off this criteria?

Well...the evidence would suggest guilty. For me as well.

Should God send us to Heaven or to Hell?

Well....if he is a JUST judge, he must punish crime. If he didn't...he wouldn't be a good judge. An earthly judge wouldn't or shouldn't get away with this! But God is holy, perfect and has the highest standard.

Hell....is for lawbreakers. Again, this is GOD's creation and God's rules. Not ours.

So....ALL men are in trouble. There is NO way we can keep these Commandments.

NOW....just as we are off to Hells cages. God himself, steps down into the world in which WE have corrupted. Became a man in Jesus Christ...took YOUR place in judgement and died on a cross for your sins and mine. Because he loves...now insert John 3:16

BUT!!!! We need to call out in humility... repent of our sins and trust in the blood of Christ for the remission of Sins....so that....on Judgement Day, God no longer see us as Lawbreakers, but ones who has trusted and put our Trust in Jesus and him alone for salvation. You can't save yourself....but God will save YOU.

That's the Gospel my friend.

That is why hell is resonable justice. We never hear in today's society of God's Judgement. Why. Because its not comfortable. So what do we see? Lots of Jesus Loves you stickers, Prosperity preaching, Everyones basically good, a Me based society....Judgement makes no sense in todays world, in fact, seems completely awful compared to the Grandpa in the Sky portrail of God we have made. Again...NO one is good, compared to God's standart, 10 Commandments.

Again...I don't get my kicks talking about Hell. But Jesus spoke and warn people more about Hell than Heaven. These are the Bible's words, not mine.

HOWEVER....I would think it would be a heck of alot more LOVING to tell the WHOLE story, than to leave a major part out and simply let boys be boys and let little sins go. Only to have someone slip into death, without warning them of the full Biblical account.

That's it....that's my best shot. I got no more bullets. I stand on the Word of God. I can't convince you, that's not my job. But look at your sins, the Commandments, humble yourself...and then think of Jesus paying your fine FOR YOU. He's the perfect sacrfice, so God - instead of killing us- killed his son...so that...if you repent and trust...he'll give you a new heart, desires....or what that would call being "born again" John 3:3. Not a bad offer, if you ask me.

That's all I got Kyle or anyone reading. This is not some scheme to go after your money and I'm not asking you to join a church or do I have some secret agenda, I just want to see you walking around Heaven someday....just think about it, maybe for the first time.


Sorry all, for the length.

[The_Architect]

Very nicely done.

[Kyle]

Originally Posted by larrysarmy

Fair enough Kyle...let me sum up why I write what I write, which ties into your reason of non-belief, via evil type lines, eternal damnation. And honestly, this is what I would of said if and when our schedules could jive to meet. Maybe will just save on gas here:)

Apologetics are fun...but they are circular in nature. Debates like this can be engaging, zesty and makes for good convo, at least to me. But my stance is one of eternal. And before you roll the eyes, hear me out.

--Has anyone ever REALLY explained the Gospel to you?---

I appreciate the effort, as I know your motivations are good. I would contend its actually a bit unethical for someone with beliefs such as you hold to not try to spread the message of the gospel.

To answer your question, yes, I'm thoroughly familiar with the message the gospel. I was raised Lutheran (Missouri Synod) and firmly believed until near the end of high school. I even taught my own vacation bible school class and substituted as a Sunday school teacher a few times. The more I learned though, the more my beliefs were called into question. I relied to a large extent on Matthew 7:7-8 - "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened." Despite this, the more I sought answers, the more I was given reason to doubt. Reason eventually won out and resulted in my lack of belief.

[larrysarmy]

Originally Posted by Kyle

I appreciate the effort, as I know your motivations are good. I would contend its actually a bit unethical for someone with beliefs such as you hold to not try to spread the message of the gospel.

To answer your question, yes, I'm thoroughly familiar with the message the gospel. I was raised Lutheran (Missouri Synod) and firmly believed until near the end of high school. I even taught my own vacation bible school class and substituted as a Sunday school teacher a few times. The more I learned though, the more my beliefs were called into question. I relied to a large extent on Matthew 7:7-8 - "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened." Despite this, the more I sought answers, the more I was given reason to doubt. Reason eventually won out and resulted in my lack of belief.

Thank you for your honesty Kyle. I also am very familiar with Missouri Synod churches, several members and a pastor in my immediate family. And not to cast stone that describes all....but I've been to many Missouri Synod services where, the Gospel in which I presented via the Bible, is NOT preached. Again, I don't know your particular church.

In respects to Mathew 7: This goes back to the concept of being "born again" or having the conversion in which GOD is the major player...not simply being baptisted, going to church when you young, teaching Sunday School or saying a scripted sinner prayer or good works. Unfortunately, the church -my denomination included - can produce false converts who believe they are good to go because of these things....but when trails come, there out and backslide away. Some would believe they were never saved in the first place, thus Gods promises- such as Matt 7 - wouldn't happen. Again...this is from the context that ALL men are born sinners and are seperated from God until the realization of sin and then true humbleness and repentance and faith in Christ.

[Kyle]

Originally Posted by larrysarmy

Thank you for your honesty Kyle. I also am very familiar with Missouri Synod churches, several members and a pastor in my immediate family. And not to cast stone that describes all....but I've been to many Missouri Synod services where, the Gospel in which I presented via the Bible, is NOT preached. Again, I don't know your particular church.

The gospel as you presented above was familiar and consistent with the teachings of the church I attended. I think it probably depends on the individual pastor.

In respects to Mathew 7: This goes back to the concept of being "born again" or having the conversion in which GOD is the major player...not simply being baptisted, going to church when you young, teaching Sunday School or saying a scripted sinner prayer or good works. Unfortunately, the church -my denomination included - can produce false converts who believe they are good to go because of these things....but when trails come, there out and backslide away. Some would believe they were never saved in the first place, thus Gods promises- such as Matt 7 - wouldn't happen. Again...this is from the context that ALL men are born sinners and are seperated from God until the realization of sin and then true humbleness and repentance and faith in Christ.

I interpret the verse to mean that if one is seeking truth and asking God for guidance in doing so, then God will guide him towards that truth. I'm not sure if I completely followed your above reasoning, but does it conflict with this interpretation?

[larrysarmy]

Originally Posted by Kyle

The gospel as you presented above was familiar and consistent with the teachings of the church I attended. I think it probably depends on the individual pastor.

>>>>>Agree on the Pastor comment. But if the teaching was the same. Did you ever respond or come to the knowledge you were a full blown sinner and humbled yourself before God and cried out to him? Know full well that your sin could no be paid on your own effort? Asking for his forgiveness for the outright sin (10 Commandment breaking)?
-Were you in the Word daily?
-Did you grow in Holiness?
-If I ask 5 of your best friends at that time, would they say your faith and love for Christ was the number 1 in your life?
-Were you seeing the fruits of the Spirit evident in your daily life?

--Reason for saying this....If the God of the Universe, creator of all in this world, came into your life and saved you. I get the feeling he'd make it clearly knownand their would be a radical change. Paul often reference the "Old Man" being dead, but in Christ we are "New Creation".<<<<<<


I interpret the verse to mean that if one is seeking truth and asking God for guidance in doing so, then God will guide him towards that truth. I'm not sure if I completely followed your above reasoning, but does it conflict with this interpretation?

Again, this goes with my response above. If not truely converted, then God's promises probably wouldn't occur, not saying it can't, but within the context of the verse, it would seem to indicated the passage is for believers.

Also- I have no clue in what you were asking God to provide. Maybe you were in a season of seeking this whole God thing out. I was there and was equally frustrated.
Where you in the Word everyday, during this season of asking? Some confuse asking for wisdom as if God will somehow become a cosmic genie and write the answer in the sky or some how audibly communicate with you. God's word is complete, useful for everything, teaching, correctness, rebuke, ect. Often times its found within his Word, Godly Council, Good Teaching...not to mention the Holy Spirit.

I can only plead you to look at the commandments and realize that - IF all this is true -you are guilty, just like everyone, including me. Think about what God says on Judgement Day....Heck, look down the page in Mathew 7. Jesus says....many will come to him on the day of Judgment and say "Lord, Lord....and Jesus will say.....
Depart from me...you workers of LAW-lessness (10 Commandments, the Law)....I NEVER knew you.

[CycloneErik]

Originally Posted by Kyle

I appreciate the effort, as I know your motivations are good. I would contend its actually a bit unethical for someone with beliefs such as you hold to not try to spread the message of the gospel.

To answer your question, yes, I'm thoroughly familiar with the message the gospel. I was raised Lutheran (Missouri Synod) and firmly believed until near the end of high school. I even taught my own vacation bible school class and substituted as a Sunday school teacher a few times. The more I learned though, the more my beliefs were called into question. I relied to a large extent on Matthew 7:7-8 - "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened." Despite this, the more I sought answers, the more I was given reason to doubt. Reason eventually won out and resulted in my lack of belief.

Kyle, thanks for those verses That passage is the one that helped me realize that I could be saved. I had thought that it applied to everybody else, but the teaching that God loves to give good gifts to those who ask finally closed it for me. Thanks for the reminder!

[Phaedrus]

Originally Posted by Kyle

The literal account of creation found in Genesis is of very little use and can probably be lumped together with most other mythology as far as scientific support for it goes.

Except that if taken as a series of "memes", it comes creepily close to what science is now showing us "most probably happened" at the beginning of the earth.

And how, precisely, did bronze age humans get a fairly analogous version of how the earth was created "billions of years" before?

Go to Leviticus and see how the Levites were instructed to handle the Ark of the Covenant. These instructions are extremely analogous to Personal Protective Equipment used to handle nuke/chem/bio hazards today.

[ajk4st8]

Must be Celtics fans.