The Fall of the SUV

[sunset]

Originally Posted by Wesley

So what do you read for fun besides the Rag?

I read the San Diego Union-Tribune (hometown paper) and Wall Street Journal. The U-T it carries articles from the Times and Post services but counterbalances with other points of view. I've tried to find actual news reporting in these other papers and all I've seen are editorials that all seem to have the same point of view.

I don't read the Rag except for sneeking a peek at the on-line sports section every now and again.

[benjay]

Originally Posted by Wesley

At our workplace, we have several people who commute by driving their big vehicles 5,000-10,000 miles per year. If a person works in Des Moines and lives in Ames, he would be in that category. This is not happening in London or Berlin where people ride the train a similar distance. Europe is paying $9/gallon right now.

That's very true. I think the author is saying if gas prices continue to rise, we may have to start taking trains or buses rather than driving. The problem is trains/buses just doesn't work very well with many American cities logistically. The first thing to go will be gas-guzzling vehicles. It's happening already - a lot of people I know figure gas mileage to be a top priority in new vehicles, whereas a few years ago they didn't care.

[cycloneworld]

Originally Posted by benjay

Saying the size of Germany is why Germans drive less is at best over-simplifying the statistic. At worst it's just plain wrong. I'm leaning towards just plain wrong.

The sheer size of the United States requires people to drive more. I hope you don't dispute that. Some people commute many miles to work that just wouldn't happen in Germany. Communting the distance from Ames to Des Moines would be the same as Germans driving more than 15% across their country. That wouldn't happen there. But it happens here because everything is much, much more spread out.

[benjay]

Originally Posted by cycloneworld

The sheer size of the United States requires people to drive more. I hope you don't dispute that. Some people commute many miles to work that just wouldn't happen in Germany. Communting the distance from Ames to Des Moines would be the same as Germans driving more than 15% across their country. That wouldn't happen there. But it happens here because everything is much, much more spread out.

I'm not convinced the size of the country has as much to do with it as the gas prices in Europe. If I had to pay $9/gallon, I'd be driving less..

[CloneAggie]

Originally Posted by cycloneworld

The sheer size of the United States requires people to drive more. I hope you don't dispute that. Some people commute many miles to work that just wouldn't happen in Germany. Communting the distance from Ames to Des Moines would be the same as Germans driving more than 15% across their country. That wouldn't happen there. But it happens here because everything is much, much more spread out.

Germany = 137,847 square miles
Iowa = 56,272 square miles

Comparing Germany to Iowa probably isn't a good comparison.

In terms of states, Germany is closest in size to Montana (147,047 square miles).

[ahaselhu]

I think what it would come down to is that people would more often need to choose where they live based on where they work, either close enough that the drive is not significant, or close to public transportation that would get them there. Not just live wherever they want and drive to work.

[Bobber]

Very good article. I lived in Germany for a year and agree with most of what he wrote. They have a great standard of living and really live a very similar life style to us. And don't use the it's a small country argument, because vacations for them are going to Italy or Spain and it's just like us driving to Florida or Texas. I found that local shopping and celebrations were better attended there due to higher fuel prices and I can't see how that would be a bad thing to happen here?

I think the Authors point is that if high fuel prices are here to stay, we can learn some very good lessons from the Europeans. It will take some time, but our habits will change if fuel prices stay high. I just had a buddy who drove a pick up truck who bought a new Ford Fusion to save some $$. We'll see more of that happening if prices keep going higher.

I think it' s amusing when people proclaim they'll keep driving their tank size trucks and SUV's until they die. Fine it's a free country and you can certainly do that. I'll just keep laughing all the way to the bank.

[sunset]

Originally Posted by cycloneworld

The sheer size of the United States requires people to drive more. I hope you don't dispute that. Some people commute many miles to work that just wouldn't happen in Germany. Communting the distance from Ames to Des Moines would be the same as Germans driving more than 15% across their country. That wouldn't happen there. But it happens here because everything is much, much more spread out.

I'm by no means an expert (doesn't ISU have some sort of urban planning program, maybe somebody more knowledgeable can correct me), but the sheer size of the United States also makes effective public transportation more difficult.

I've lived in both San Francisco and Los Angeles. San Francisco has a wonderful public transportation system because it has a centralized workplace destination (downtown SF) and a population living in close proximity to the workplace destination (the bay really effected the layout of the region as it was built up).

Los Angeles has one of the worst public transportation systems I've ever seen, though they are trying to improve. The reality is that L.A. is too spread out to have an efficient system.

Most U.S. cities more closely resemble the L.A. model, a downtown that houses a very small percentage of jobs and suburban sprawl where most people live and work. Not a good candidate for public transporation.

[Clonefan94]

Originally Posted by benjay

That's very true. I think the author is saying if gas prices continue to rise, we may have to start taking trains or buses rather than driving. The problem is trains/buses just doesn't work very well with many American cities logistically. The first thing to go will be gas-guzzling vehicles. It's happening already - a lot of people I know figure gas mileage to be a top priority in new vehicles, whereas a few years ago they didn't care.

Yeah, taking a train/bus to work isn't even an option for me. Luckily I don't live far from work because if I did take the bus, it would cost me more for the monthly pass than I spend on Gas. And I drive an F-150.

To be honest though, I'd love to leave the driving to someone else, but, we are the victims of our own success in the past. The public transportation system in most cities is really terrible. It's never expanded more beyond the need. hopefully that will change soon.

[cyeah]

I find the whole argument around SUVs humorous. We drive a Suburban as our family vehicle. When I drive it on vacation we typically get around 15 mpg.

Assuming one drives 13,000 miles per year (around the national average). Gas cost for our vehicle at $1.599 per gallon is $1,300 for the year; gas costs at $6.599 per gallon would be $5,719 per year an increase of $4,300 dollars. Right now at $3.699 it is costing us $1,800 dollars a year more in gas.

The vehicle costs $45,000 to purchase (actually listed higher, it is the Z-71).

If you are driving a $45k - $50k vehicle and can't find a couple of thousand more bucks in your budget your driving the wrong car.

Do I enjoy spending the money on gas? Heck no.

Am I going to put my family, my most precious family in some pop can car to save a few grand on gas? Heck no.

If I could buy a sub that ran at 30 mpg and still had the same features and safety as they currently do would I buy it? yes if it only cost $10k - $15k more because I can justify that over the life of the vehicle. Anything more than that and I am not interested.

[candg4ever]

I think the problem is, until it affects most people directly, to them, there is no problem.

One of things that impressed me about most of our predecessors, was they endeavored to leave things better than they found them, either on a personal or global level.
That train of thought seems to be disappearing.

Too many people believe that if we ignore a problem, or simply refuse to give any credibility to proven facts, then those problems don't exist.

Our government is so broken, it'll literally take decades to repair, and people are rapidly becoming disenchanted. Politicians have lost sight of their purpose, but all is not lost.

Don't give up, give a damn!!

[jdoggivjc]

I know mass transit as a whole would never work in the Quad Cities. Out of the four cities, only Moline has a true downtown. However, the Quad Cities is much more industrial and much less commerce-driven. The most centralized employer here is the Rock Island Arsenal, which ironically is a military instillation located on an island in the Mississippi River. However, the largest employer here is John Deere, and just with Deere alone it proves the point that mass transit won't work here. World headquarters is located in Silvis, which is in southeast part of the QC metro area. One of their gigantic factories is just west of downtown Moline along the Mississippi River. Another one of their factories is in northeast Davenport, south of I-80. Yet another is located just north of Davenport and east of Mount Joy, near the I-80/US 61 interchange. That doesn't even include the rest of the factories that line the Mississippi River on both sides, generally towards the west, and the others that are along I-80. Everything here is so decentralized it just wouldn't work here.

[drmwevr08]

Originally Posted by sunset

I'm by no means an expert (doesn't ISU have some sort of urban planning program, maybe somebody more knowledgeable can correct me), but the sheer size of the United States also makes effective public transportation more difficult.

I've lived in both San Francisco and Los Angeles. San Francisco has a wonderful public transportation system because it has a centralized workplace destination (downtown SF) and a population living in close proximity to the workplace destination (the bay really effected the layout of the region as it was built up).

Los Angeles has one of the worst public transportation systems I've ever seen, though they are trying to improve. The reality is that L.A. is too spread out to have an efficient system.

Most U.S. cities more closely resemble the L.A. model, a downtown that houses a very small percentage of jobs and suburban sprawl where most people live and work. Not a good candidate for public transporation.

Bingo. Being larger in itself would not make a difference except that yes, we also have spread everything out far more than most of europe. Most of our cities are ill prepared for a transition to public transit. While folks will eventually demand it in greater numbers, it will be more difficult to set up and run than in most of Europe.

[dmclone]

Originally Posted by candg4ever

One of things that impressed me about most of our predecessors, was they endeavored to leave things better than they found them, either on a personal or global level.
That train of thought seems to be disappearing.

I live better than my parents/grandparent/great grandparents and so on. If I had kids I'd be willing to bet that they will someday live better than I do.

Just 30 years go every big city had severe smog problems. Now just a few have this problem and I'd be willing to bet every city in America has less.

I guess a lot depends on what you consider better. Our health care is better, people live longer, less racism, more disposable income, bigger houses, more cars, and so on. All those things have gotten better and I think it will continue.

[cycloneworld]

Originally Posted by CloneAggie

Germany = 137,847 square miles
Iowa = 56,272 square miles

Comparing Germany to Iowa probably isn't a good comparison.

In terms of states, Germany is closest in size to Montana (147,047 square miles).

My bad, I just threw out an uneducated guess. But my point still stands. The United States is 3.72 million square miles or 27 times bigger than Germany. If people don't think that Germans drive less because of that fact, I would strongly disagree.