The Fall of the SUV

jdoggivjc · 05-19-2008, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by drmwevr08

Bingo. Being larger in itself would not make a difference except that yes, we also have spread everything out far more than most of europe. Most of our cities are ill prepared for a transition to public transit. While folks will eventually demand it in greater numbers, it will be more difficult to set up and run than in most of Europe.

More costly, too.

dmclone · 05-19-2008, 01:42 PM

population

Germany=82,400,996

Montana=944,632

Roughly the same size but 88x as many people.

besserheimerphat · 05-19-2008, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by cycloneworld

My bad, I just threw out an uneducated guess. But my point still stands. The United States is 3.72 million square miles or 27 times bigger than Germany. If people don't think that Germans drive less because of that fact, I would strongly disagree.

I'd argue that the issue is population density and resource centralization rather than just land area. If you'd rather, compare the whole of Europe the the US, which is the author's point in the first place. Europeans as a whole drive much less, and Europe is a better comparison in terms of shear area. However, because the cities are much more dense, it's easier to get to "stuff" without driving. Germany just happens to be a shining example of the system working well.

In the US, the well-off live in the suburbs while the poor live in the city center/downtown. In Europe, that trend is reversed - the well-off live near downtown (work, retail, markets, social activities) while the poor live farther away.

CloneAggie · 05-19-2008, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by dmclone

population

Germany=82,400,996

Montana=944,632

Roughly the same size but 88x as many people.

Exactly ... which is what the poster above said. Much of it has to do with density, not just area.

Flag Guy · 05-19-2008, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by cycloneworld

My bad, I just threw out an uneducated guess. But my point still stands. The United States is 3.72 million square miles or 27 times bigger than Germany. If people don't think that Germans drive less because of that fact, I would strongly disagree.

You're completely missing the point of the article though. It IS possible that due to the size of the country spreading out isn't an option... but there certainly are plenty of open spaces in Germany.

While Germany was an example, the model applies to most of Europe (for example, Spain, which is a bit bigger, and from what I saw of it via bus and train, there is a LOT of unused space in Spain. And I went from North to South, middle to the East... covered a fair ammount of ground)

The point of the article in terms of public transit use versus driving is that in America our cities sprawl and have low density housing, where as in Europe there is a much denser population. I spent some time in Valencia and every where in the city you would find similar things... blocks of apartment buildings with little grocery stores, pharmacies, bars, shoe stores, clothing stores, etc on the ground floor. Bus stops were within 2 or 3 blocks, and the subway connected to busier places of commerece (such as malls, department stores, theaters, etc)
There were also parks all over the place.

So... if you have a grocery store every 4-5 blocks, you don't have to drive 10-15 minutes just to get to one (Easily save a gallon of gas per shopping run) Public transportation works because on any given street block you have a couple hundred people that live there or walk to that stop. Given the same foot print of land in the US, you might have a couple dozen, if that.

Bringing the focus back to the origional point... It isn't just about the size of the land you have to build on, it's the size of the land you choose to build on. Just because we have 27 times the land (and 3 or 4 times the population... or 8.5 times the square mile per person roughly) doesn't mean that we have to use that land for our cities.

Our extra driving takes place in an area the size of Berlin, not an area the size of the United States

Phaedrus · 05-20-2008, 12:42 AM

I think it is important to note that the SUV was created, almost in it's entirety, by bad Federal Regulations in the form of CAFE standards. Germany doesn't have Government agencies telling its people what kind of car they can drive, and what kind of gas mileage it can get.

As a result, the station wagon, which gets better gas mileage, is safer and drives better on the road, is still extremely popular in Germany.

So... if we hold up Germany as a paragon of car mileage, can we drive 180 mph on the interstates, now???

candg4ever · 05-20-2008, 06:30 AM

Originally Posted by dmclone

I live better than my parents/grandparent/great grandparents and so on. If I had kids I'd be willing to bet that they will someday live better than I do.

Just 30 years go every big city had severe smog problems. Now just a few have this problem and I'd be willing to bet every city in America has less.

I guess a lot depends on what you consider better. Our health care is better, people live longer, less racism, more disposable income, bigger houses, more cars, and so on. All those things have gotten better and I think it will continue.

Health care is better for people who are lucky enough to have it. People living longer might not be the bonus it promises to be. Soc. sec. is in serious trouble without some type of major overhaul and a source on NBC's Today show reported that due to the economy, 35-40% of U.S. workers are having to pull money from retirement funds and/or other accts. just to meet living expenses.

The other things you list are questionable. Is income more disposable now, or do people just not save as much. Before, you had to save to make major purchases, now you put it on a credit card and pay for it for 5, 10, 15 yrs.

Are bigger houses really an improvement? They cost more to heat, cool, and maintain. Much more land is needed. A neighborhood that used to have 8-10 houses per block now has 4-6. More people having cars is a big part of the problem. I know it's a free country and we all can do/use/buy whatever we choose, but c'mon! I was coming back to Ames the other day the "back" way, (across Big Creek and thru Polk City), and I saw many beautiful, new houses, some finished, some still being built. The thing that amazed me about almost all of these new homes was the square footage of the garages looked to me to be the same or more than for the house itself!

People used to try to impress their neighbors with honesty, compassion, dignity, a willingness to get involved, and a true sense of togetherness. I guess that's why we called them neighborhoods, and now their called housing developments.

cyeah · 05-20-2008, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by candg4ever

Health care is better for people who are lucky enough to have it. People living longer might not be the bonus it promises to be. Soc. sec. is in serious trouble without some type of major overhaul and a source on NBC's Today show reported that due to the economy, 35-40% of U.S. workers are having to pull money from retirement funds and/or other accts. just to meet living expenses.

The other things you list are questionable. Is income more disposable now, or do people just not save as much. Before, you had to save to make major purchases, now you put it on a credit card and pay for it for 5, 10, 15 yrs.

Are bigger houses really an improvement? They cost more to heat, cool, and maintain. Much more land is needed. A neighborhood that used to have 8-10 houses per block now has 4-6. More people having cars is a big part of the problem. I know it's a free country and we all can do/use/buy whatever we choose, but c'mon! I was coming back to Ames the other day the "back" way, (across Big Creek and thru Polk City), and I saw many beautiful, new houses, some finished, some still being built. The thing that amazed me about almost all of these new homes was the square footage of the garages looked to me to be the same or more than for the house itself!

People used to try to impress their neighbors with honesty, compassion, dignity, a willingness to get involved, and a true sense of togetherness. I guess that's why we called them neighborhoods, and now their called housing developments.

Lucky enough to have health insurance? - you can show up at any ER anywhere in the country without health care and still get some of the finest care in the world.

If you can't afford premiums on your own there are bunches of gov't handouts to help you out or cover you outright. It is not luck in this country to have health insurance just a little application.

Yes, SC is in trouble and has been for years. There are two ways it can be saved - partial privatization or massive (and I mean massive) tax increases. I am a huge fan of partial privatization I think correctly applied it can be great. I am not at all in favor of sending more money to DC for the folks to blend the money into the general fund and spend it and then be staring at a larger problem down the road. Not to mention the economic impact of hiking taxes.

Anyone who tries to fix SC gets killed and the old folks get scare mongered into thinking that person is taking away their SC check.

I do live better than my parents, heck I make more in a quarter than pops makes in a year. I have had a great opportunity and am handing to my children even greater opportunity.

The American dream is alive and well for those willing to WORK FOR IT! The dream has never walked up to anyone and said please take me for free, it has always been obtained by those willing to bust butt and work for it and as long as we maintain our liberties, freedoms, and decency (the founders said reliance on God), the American dream will be here for those willing to work for it.

dmclone · 05-20-2008, 08:50 AM

Ditto...............

Phaedrus · 05-21-2008, 02:04 AM

Originally Posted by candg4ever

Health care is better for people who are lucky enough to have it. People living longer might not be the bonus it promises to be. Soc. sec. is in serious trouble without some type of major overhaul and a source on NBC's Today show reported that due to the economy, 35-40% of U.S. workers are having to pull money from retirement funds and/or other accts. just to meet living expenses.

Wrong. But not surprising from "NBC's Today Show". And in the cases where it is true, it is 99.99% a self-inflicted wound.

The other things you list are questionable. Is income more disposable now, or do people just not save as much. Before, you had to save to make major purchases, now you put it on a credit card and pay for it for 5, 10, 15 yrs.

Are bigger houses really an improvement? They cost more to heat, cool, and maintain. Much more land is needed. A neighborhood that used to have 8-10 houses per block now has 4-6. More people having cars is a big part of the problem. I know it's a free country and we all can do/use/buy whatever we choose, but c'mon! I was coming back to Ames the other day the "back" way, (across Big Creek and thru Polk City), and I saw many beautiful, new houses, some finished, some still being built. The thing that amazed me about almost all of these new homes was the square footage of the garages looked to me to be the same or more than for the house itself!

People used to try to impress their neighbors with honesty, compassion, dignity, a willingness to get involved, and a true sense of togetherness. I guess that's why we called them neighborhoods, and now their called housing developments.

I have to agree with your latter points, though...