Food vs. Fuel

**pyrocyz** · 09-15-2009, 10:37 AM

I am not trying to start a political throw-down, just looking for peoples opinion. I work in the biorenewables industry and went to Iowa State to get degrees in Mechanical Engineering and Biorenewable Resources and Technology.

I came across this youtube video this morning that made me wonder what others thought about the food vs fuel debate. I think that it is a ridiculous concept but I want to hear what you think.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTBSJl9gabA]YouTube - Biofuels scandal + food prices. Biofuel crisis, biofuel oil, biofuel production, cars, algae, systems and basics introduction to facts about biofuels. Conference keynote speaker Patrick Dixon[/ame]

**brianhos** · 09-15-2009, 10:48 AM

How is it a ridiculous concept? Using crops as fuel raises crop pries, pretty simple supply and demand.

**The_Architect** · 09-15-2009, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by brianhos

How is it a ridiculous concept? Using crops as fuel raises crop pries, pretty simple supply and demand.

This. While the ethanol biz is good for Iowa, it's contributing the the dwindling world food supplies.

**aeroclone** · 09-15-2009, 10:52 AM

I might be more willing to support it if it actually served as a cost efficient replacement for traditional fuels, but from what I have seen so far it doesn't. Add in some of the negative impacts on the food side and the whole movement just seems like a big loser so far. Maybe down the road we will have a winner with cellulosic ethanol or something, but at this point I think we have a loser on our hands.

**pyrocyz** · 09-15-2009, 11:04 AM

The US exported more corn last year than it did the year before...how is using corn for ethanol then effecting the world food supply??

Also, do you realize that the cost of the corn in corn flakes contributes to less than 10% of the total cost of the corn flakes. The rising cost of energy for production and transportation is more to blame for rising food costs than the price of corn. Corn prices have dropped, have food prices??

The third world lives on rice and grains, have you ever heard of a biofuel that is made from rice or wheat? I for sure haven't. Most bio-fuels that are being developed currently use waste materials rather than food products.

**usedcarguy** · 09-15-2009, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by The_Architect

This. While the ethanol biz is good for Iowa, it's contributing the the dwindling world food supplies.

I'm not sure how you can really make that arguement, in considering that the majority of corn goes into livestock feed, and livestock are at very depressed prices. Obviously there's no shortage of supply of grain but a shortage of demand for meat.

**pyrocyz** · 09-15-2009, 11:06 AM

The rise in corn prices only raised the price of a box of corn flakes by 1.6 cents due to the 50% rise in corn prices...

**jbhtexas** · 09-15-2009, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by usedcarguy

I'm not sure how you can really make that arguement, in considering that the majority of corn goes into livestock feed, and livestock are at very depressed prices. Obviously there's no shortage of supply of grain but a shortage of demand for meat.

I think you have to throw in the argument that farmers who would normally grow wheat or other food grains are now growing corn to take advantage of corn prices. Whether that argument is valid or not, I don't know. I was looking at U.S. wheat production costs recently, and at current prices, you need strong yields to break even. I know that farmers in the part of the country that I am from are always looking for things to grow other than wheat, so they can generate more revenue. Why shouldn't they?

**usedcarguy** · 09-15-2009, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by aeroclone

I might be more willing to support it if it actually served as a cost efficient replacement for traditional fuels, but from what I have seen so far it doesn't. Add in some of the negative impacts on the food side and the whole movement just seems like a big loser so far. Maybe down the road we will have a winner with cellulosic ethanol or something, but at this point I think we have a loser on our hands.

It's hard to say at this point whether it's a big loser or not. Most of the studies I've seen are not consistent in how they apply economic costs of pollution (emissions and soil runoff) or the cost shifting of ethanol subsidies as compared to the grain subsidies we paid before we had ethanol created demand.

And once you take all of that into account, there's still the issue of savings from not sending the military into oil producing areas of the middle east.

All in all, a very difficult question to answer.

**usedcarguy** · 09-15-2009, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by pyrocyz

I am not trying to start a political throw-down, just looking for peoples opinion. I work in the biorenewables industry and went to Iowa State to get degrees in Mechanical Engineering and Biorenewable Resources and Technology.

I came across this youtube video this morning that made me wonder what others thought about the food vs fuel debate. I think that it is a ridiculous concept but I want to hear what you think.

YouTube - Biofuels scandal + food prices. Biofuel crisis, biofuel oil, biofuel production, cars, algae, systems and basics introduction to facts about biofuels. Conference keynote speaker Patrick Dixon

I can't hear what he's saying as I don't have speakers on this computer, but if his arguement is that bio-fuels are responsible for high grain prices he is dilusional. Everything is tied to oil.

**Clonehomer** · 09-15-2009, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by brianhos

How is it a ridiculous concept? Using crops as fuel raises crop pries, pretty simple supply and demand.

Higher crop prices = more income for farmers
More income for farmers = less government support
Less government support = less taxes

I know they will not actually lower taxes but one could wish. Either way, why is ethanol always the fuel compared? Isn't biodiesel more efficient to produce? It wouldn't take a huge shift in the US supply system for people to begin using diesel vehicles with biodiesel rather than gasoline and from everything that I've read it would actually be a more positive switch than moving to ethanol.

**TykeClone** · 09-15-2009, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by usedcarguy

I can't hear what he's saying as I don't have speakers on this computer, but if his arguement is that bio-fuels are responsible for high grain prices he is dilusional. Everything is tied to oil.

US Ethanol production raises the price of corn by $1 per bushel and if you look at the price of corn versus the price of fuel for the last two years, there is a very, very strong correlation between the two.

**jbhtexas** · 09-15-2009, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by Clonehomer

I know they will not actually lower taxes but one could wish. Either way, why is ethanol always the fuel compared? Isn't biodiesel more efficient to produce? It wouldn't take a huge shift in the US supply system for people to begin using diesel vehicles with biodiesel rather than gasoline and from everything that I've read it would actually be a more positive switch than moving to ethanol.

+1

Black smoke occasionally comes out of diesel vehicles, thus they have been deemed evil by the environmental police...

**Clonehomer** · 09-15-2009, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by jbhtexas

+1

Black smoke occasionally comes out of diesel vehicles, thus it has been deemed evil by the environmental police...

I guess I always thought that CO and CO2 were colorless odorless gasses so it really doesn't matter what the exhaust looks like.

**pyrocyz** · 09-15-2009, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by TykeClone

US Ethanol production raises the price of corn by $1 per bushel and if you look at the price of corn versus the price of fuel for the last two years, there is a very, very strong correlation between the two.

Do me a favor and compare those costs to the cost of oil...it is very interesting.

Oil contributes more towards the cost of food than the actual cost of the food.