Gotta give Barry Bonds credit

[Tre4ISU]

No, because the entire premise of your argument is incorrect. Do you receive a 100 game suspension for getting caught with tar on your hat or sandpaper in your pocket? If cheating was just cheating, then all punishments would be equal.

We aren't talking about suspensions though. We are talking about entry into the HOF. Perry used that pitch throughout his career. What do you think would happen if he got caught 2 or 3 times now days? Not only that, but there were no ways for a hitter to combat a spitter. In the PED era of baseball, I think it's safe to assume the vast majority of players were using PEDs so maybe it was even more fair the what Perry was doing.

[Stormin]

No, because the entire premise of your argument is incorrect. Do you receive a 100 game suspension for getting caught with tar on your hat or sandpaper in your pocket? If cheating was just cheating, then all punishments would be equal.

No playing bans until 2005 for using steroids, I believe. Did Barry Bonds get suspended for using steroids while playing MLB??

Corked bats, spitballs, etc. Those were all illegal. Cheating is cheating IMO.

[RayShimley]

Clearly a large majority of the BBWAA does not agree, and they are the ones who matter.

<div class="pre-quote">
Quote de <strong>RayShimley</strong> </div> <div class="post-quote"> <div style="font-style:italic">No, because the entire premise of your argument is incorrect. Do you receive a 100 game suspension for getting caught with tar on your hat or sandpaper in your pocket? If cheating was just cheating, then all punishments would be equal.No playing bans until 2005 for using steroids, I believe. Did Barry Bonds get suspended for using steroids while playing MLB??<br> <br>
Corked bats, spitballs, etc. Those were all illegal. Cheating is cheating IMO.</div> <table border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="3" align="right"> <tbody><tr> <td valign="top" align="center"><a href="http://www.cyclonefanatic.com/forum/" name="vB::QuickEdit::2260052"><img src="http://www.cyclonefanatic.com/forum/images/buttons/edit.gif" alt="Edit/Delete Message" border="0"></a></td> <td valign="top" align="center"><a href="http://www.cyclonefanatic.com/forum/pro-sports/121168-gotta-give-barry-bonds-credit-2.html#" onclick="vbform.message.value = '

' + document.getElementById('post_message_2260052').innerHTML + '

\n\n';vbform.message.focus();return false;"><img align="right" border="0" src="http://www.cyclonefanatic.com/forum/images/buttons/quote.gif"></a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <br> </div>

[RayShimley]

Also, whether Bonds was suspended for PEDs or not is immaterial to the argument of whether all cheating is equal.

<div class="pre-quote">
Quote de <strong>RayShimley</strong> </div> <div class="post-quote"> <div style="font-style:italic">No, because the entire premise of your argument is incorrect. Do you receive a 100 game suspension for getting caught with tar on your hat or sandpaper in your pocket? If cheating was just cheating, then all punishments would be equal.No playing bans until 2005 for using steroids, I believe. Did Barry Bonds get suspended for using steroids while playing MLB??<br> <br>
Corked bats, spitballs, etc. Those were all illegal. Cheating is cheating IMO.</div> <table border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="3" align="right"> <tbody><tr> <td valign="top" align="center"><a href="" name="vB::QuickEdit::2260052"><img src="images/buttons/edit.gif" alt="Edit/Delete Message" border="0"></a></td> <td valign="top" align="center"><a href="#" onclick="vbform.message.value = '

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\n\n';vbform.message.focus();return false;"><img align="right" border="0" src="images/buttons/quote.gif"></a></td> </tr> </tbody></table> <br> </div>

[CyOps]

I heard some comedian say that if Barry Bonds gets an asterisk for PED's, then Babe Ruth should get an asterisk for not having to play against minorities.

[JP4CY]

I heard some comedian say that if Barry Bonds gets an asterisk for PED's, then Babe Ruth should get an asterisk for not having to play against minorities.

It's seriously true though.

[Stormin]

Clearly a large majority of the BBWAA does not agree, and they are the ones who matter.

Because they are a bunch of hypocrites. Hell, I remember back in the days of Gaylord Perry how they glorified him because he was throwing the spitter.

The thing is baseball really didn't have a policy outlawing steroids until the 2000's and didn't even have suspensions in place for using steroids until 2005.

MLB knew that something was going on with the increase in homeruns being hit. But they loved the publicity. And looked the other way. Mark McGwire even publicized the fact that he was using a supplement back in 1998. It was no big secret.

So now that allegations have been made against Lance Armstrong on doping does that mean that his Tour de France wins should now be ignored??

[Cyclonestate78]

But is that right? I really don't know the answer but to me the playing field was even. If everyone is doing it is it cheating? Furthermore, if it wasn't against the rules, was it cheating? Illegal, yes. Cheating? I don't know. We will never know just how many guys used. I would guess 90% used in the Majors and more probably used in the lower levels. So take Ken Griffey Jr. Is he a HOFer? I would hope so. Did he use? Who knows? Evidence would suggest that he didn't but that's not proof. He's the type of guy who could have been hurt by the PED's if he didn't use and he is in the very small minority.

I really think the PED debate is interesting because of the wide usage and also the fact it wasn't against the rules of baseball. I don't know the answers on how exactly to classify the players and how to label them either. Should there be an asterisk? Should they be stricken from the books? I don't know.

Griffey was a classy player but with all of his nagging injuries.... it has to make people question if he was on the juice or not. If it was just one or two players that got nailed juicing it wouldn't be like this but I think fans were shocked to see just how wide spread PED use really was. Nobody is above suspicion from that era anymore and unfortunately some players that were clean and put up HOF type numbers are probably going to get the shaft and not get in because of it. A-Rod lied about it. Bonds lied about it. Clemens lied about it. Ortiz lied about it. Palmeiro lied about it. On and on we go... A clean player can claim to be innocent until he is blue in the face now because nobody is going to believe them anymore. MLB really screwed the pooch for everyone involved by turning a blind eye to PED use.

[Clones33]

Griffey was a classy player but with all of his nagging injuries.... it has to make people question if he was on the juice or not. If it was just one or two players that got nailed juicing it wouldn't be like this but I think fans were shocked to see just how wide spread PED use really was. Nobody is above suspicion from that era anymore and unfortunately some players that were clean and put up HOF type numbers are probably going to get the shaft and not get in because of it. A-Rod lied about it. Bonds lied about it. Clemens lied about it. Ortiz lied about it. Palmeiro lied about it. On and on we go... A clean player can claim to be innocent until he is blue in the face now because nobody is going to believe them anymore. MLB really screwed the pooch for everyone involved by turning a blind eye to PED use.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that one of the huge advantages of PED's were that they help prevent you from being injured and/or helped you recover faster. I thought Griffy's injuries were actually a main reason why people thought that he wasn't taking steroids. That and the fact that he aged similar to how normal human beings age, unlike Mr. Bonds and others.

[Tre4ISU]

No playing bans until 2005 for using steroids, I believe. Did Barry Bonds get suspended for using steroids while playing MLB??

Corked bats, spitballs, etc. Those were all illegal. Cheating is cheating IMO.

Exactly. If it isn't in the rules and I do it, is it cheating? How can it be? Is it cheating in the spirit of the game? Sure it is but then why wasn't it in the rules?

Clearly a large majority of the BBWAA does not agree, and they are the ones who matter.

Yeah, and they won't put Pete Rose in the HOF. That alone makes me think they are a bunch of ********. That and the time that I heard the voter on Mike and Mike say that no one deserves to be a first ballot HOFer. You see, baseball is a sport in which the powers have decided that keeping it "pure" is more important than the game progressing. Look around. I know in my community which I grew up in, the interest around baseball is not near what it was when I was young. You could barely find enough coaches back then. It isn't like that now. The inner cities are even worse in that respect. The NBA and NFL have appealed themselves to the masses. More kids want to be LeBron or Tom Brady than want to be Joe Mauer or Hannly Ramirez. The future of the game is the youth.

Also, whether Bonds was suspended for PEDs or not is immaterial to the argument of whether all cheating is equal.

Right, so why did you bring suspensions up?

I heard some comedian say that if Barry Bonds gets an asterisk for PED's, then Babe Ruth should get an asterisk for not having to play against minorities.

That was Tosh and he has a very good point there.

[Clonefan32]

I agree with all that but now do we just pretend like that whole era of baseball didn't exist? Where did is start? Has it stopped? So then, who's in and who's out? Was Nolan Ryan juicing? Was Pedro juicing? I just think this whole thing is very complicated to sort out and have no idea how you punish the guilty and reward the innocent.

You're crazy if you don't think half of the NFL is on roids too.

[Tre4ISU]

Griffey was a classy player but with all of his nagging injuries.... it has to make people question if he was on the juice or not. If it was just one or two players that got nailed juicing it wouldn't be like this but I think fans were shocked to see just how wide spread PED use really was. Nobody is above suspicion from that era anymore and unfortunately some players that were clean and put up HOF type numbers are probably going to get the shaft and not get in because of it. A-Rod lied about it. Bonds lied about it. Clemens lied about it. Ortiz lied about it. Palmeiro lied about it. On and on we go... A clean player can claim to be innocent until he is blue in the face now because nobody is going to believe them anymore. MLB really screwed the pooch for everyone involved by turning a blind eye to PED use.

I think the fact that Junior always had a bunch of little nagging injuries is just as much an argument that he didn't use as that he did. I really wish I could know for sure if he used because he is probably my favorite athlete of all time. IMO, if he is innocent, he may be the biggest victim of PED usage. Not only was his success diminished, but he could have used, hit 700 homers and have the same era attached to him as he will anyway because he played in the steroid era. At least then he would have accomplished something.

[Stormin]

Here is a pretty good read. Interesting thought, so what if they have a Hall of Fame and nobody is in it? It seems that baseball writers want to completely ignore the late 80's and 90's and early 00"s.

Sports Central / Sports Articles and Columns / MLB / Re-Thinking Zero Tolerance For Steroids

[Tre4ISU]

You're crazy if you don't think half of the NFL is on roids too.

Yeah, I agree, but I don't care if they are. It's entertainment. The purity of the game is really irrelevant to me.

[Cyclonestate78]

I think the fact that Junior always had a bunch of little nagging injuries is just as much an argument that he didn't use as that he did. I really wish I could know for sure if he used because he is probably my favorite athlete of all time. IMO, if he is innocent, he may be the biggest victim of PED usage. Not only was his success diminished, but he could have used, hit 700 homers and have the same era attached to him as he will anyway because he played in the steroid era. At least then he would have accomplished something.

There is no doubt about it. Look at a guy like Jeter as well... he didn't have nagging injuries over his career but his power numbers sure went up during the steroid era as he was getting older and have now fallen back down to about where they started. Did he use or is age just catching up with him? Nobody can say for sure and there isn't anyway to really prove it one way or another. He certainly had teammates during that period of time that were using...