NFL: Vikes Trade for Allen?

Aclone · 04-24-2008, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by cycloneG

This is probably the worst draft for receivers in a decade. Evey analysis I've read has said the same thing.

It may be the worst draft for elite receivers (as many players have slipped, especially since the combine), but there are a great many who may prove out.

The Chiefs are in rebuilding mode and these draft picks will help them immensely while the Vikings are trying to win now which Allen will help with immensely.

I'm curious--what makes you think the Vikings aren't in rebuilding mode? The team's only strengths prior to the trade were run defense, Adrian Peterson and the left side of the offensive line.

cycloneG · 04-24-2008, 03:04 PM

I don't think the Vikings are in rebuilding mode for several reasons.

They have a defense they can keep then in every game if not win the game on their own because of their ability to score on turnovers.

They have a running game that any team would be envious of which is necessary to win in the NFL.

8-8 teams don't rebuild especially when they went 8-8 with a very young roster.

I think the Vikings can win now and are in the mindset to win now which is what this trade is all about.

ISUFan22 · 04-24-2008, 03:07 PM

Keep in mind, they were 8-8 in a mediocre NFC and an especially weak NFC North. Not exactly something to write home about.

I think AP won't be as effective this year simply for the fact the Vikes haven't done much on offense to improve and teams will focus all of their efforts on him - having a full off-season to do it.

coopaloop72 · 04-24-2008, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by Aclone

It may be the worst draft for elite receivers (as many players have slipped, especially since the combine), but there are a great many who may prove out.

I'm curious--what makes you think the Vikings aren't in rebuilding mode? The team's only strengths prior to the trade were run defense, Adrian Peterson and the left side of the offensive line.

Im sorry but the Vikings were rebuilding mode. Now with Jared Allen we are in win now mode. We have excellent O-line and D-line. Our LB's are all better than average. Darren Sharper is a pro-bowl safety, and with a healthy antoine winfield the D-backs are very good.

On offense we have the best running game in the league, we have 2 big play wide receivers in Berrian and up-and-comer Sidney rice, complemented by a good slot receiver in Bobby Wade. If Tjack can play like he did during the 5 game win streak we will be a force.

As for trading draft picks...at the #17 spot, i don't think we would have gotten anybody noteworthy...people who think we could have drafted a DE with the first pick and that DE would make an impact are nuts. Whoever we would have drafted with the first pick wouldn't be good for 2-3 years anyway and with the age we have at DT, S, and other positions...we are in a position to win NOW.

Great trade for both teams.

Aclone · 04-24-2008, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by cycloneG

I don't think the Vikings are in rebuilding mode for several reasons.

They have a defense they can keep then in every game if not win the game on their own because of their ability to score on turnovers.

They have a running game that any team would be envious of which is necessary to win in the NFL.

And, the part about the nonexistent passing game, or horrid pass defense didn't indicate a process of rebuilding...how? How many games was AP held under 100?

8-8 teams don't rebuild especially when they went 8-8 with a very young roster.

So...the likes of Pat Williams (35), Darren Sharper (32) and Matt Birk (31) constitute a "very young roster"? All of those were '07 ages, by the way.

Frankly, I would have said that the Vikes were perhaps midway through rebuilding mode. And it won't be helped in a season or two (or sooner), when stalwarts Williams, Sharper and Birk either retire or begin to decline.

cycloneG · 04-24-2008, 03:13 PM

I believe an NFC team won the Super Bowl.

Also, this same NFC team was embarrassed at home when the Vikings traveled to NY last season.

TJ will be starting his third season this fall so I hope he's still on the upslope of his learning curve. Adding Bernard Berrian should help a little. He's not an elite receiver but he's better than anything else the Vikings had.

I'm not saying the Vikings are going to dominate but I think they have the best chance at winning the NFC North. I also think they're a team that can win games by grinding it out.

Just my thoughts.

coopaloop72 · 04-24-2008, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by ISUFan22

Keep in mind, they were 8-8 in a mediocre NFC and an especially weak NFC North. Not exactly something to write home about.

I think AP won't be as effective this year simply for the fact the Vikes haven't done much on offense to improve and teams will focus all of their efforts on him - having a full off-season to do it.

In response to your first part. If you watched every Vikings game...like i did... the Vikes easily could have had 2 more wins earlier in the year against the chiefs and Lions.

As for the second part...look at LT in San Diego, everyone knows he is going to get the ball and they don't stop him. If you remember the 49ers game against the vikes, they put all their effort into stopping AP....and they did but Chester had 90 yards that game and we thumped the niners.

Vikes offense and defense will be better this year. Sidney rice will have a big year.

cycloneG · 04-24-2008, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by Aclone

And, the part about the nonexistent passing game, or horrid pass defense didn't indicate a process of rebuilding...how? How many games was AP held under 100?

I believe they've tried to improve both the passing offense and defense with the additions of Bernard Berrian (sp?) and Allen.

Originally Posted by Aclone

So...the likes of Pat Williams (35), Darren Sharper (32) and Matt Birk (31) constitute a "very young roster"? All of those were '07 ages, by the way.

Frankly, I would have said that the Vikes were perhaps midway through rebuilding mode. And it won't be helped in a season or two (or sooner), when stalwarts Williams, Sharper and Birk either retire or begin to decline.

Those three players not getting any younger is a good reason to try to win now. Plus, if you look at the roster as a whole, it is still a very young team.

Aclone · 04-24-2008, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by coopaloop72

Im sorry but the Vikings were rebuilding mode. Now with Jared Allen we are in win now mode. We have excellent O-line and D-line. Our LB's are all better than average. Darren Sharper is a pro-bowl safety, and with a healthy antoine winfield the D-backs are very good.

Who plays Udeze's spot? Are you really calling Herrera and Cook "excellent"? Leber "better than average"? And who plays at a Pro Bowl level at the other safety, and who is the third (or fourth) corner?

On offense we have the best running game in the league, we have 2 big play wide receivers in Berrian and up-and-comer Sidney Rice, complemented by a good slot receiver in Bobby Wade. If Tjack can play like he did during the 5 game win streak we will be a force.

Berrian proved he could break the long one..but can he be consistent, and take the pounding? Who is the fourth receiver?

As for trading draft picks...at the #17 spot, i don't think we would have gotten anybody noteworthy...

I am reasonably sure that at #17 we could have found a tackle who would have been clearing gaping holes for Peterson for the next ten years--if AP lasts that long.

At #3, someone like Tuba to succeed Pat Williams. That still leaves the #2 for what will still be a roll of the dice, and the other #3 that might have brought a decent guard, or a center to succeed Birk.

It's not as if we don't still have the guys who played the rush end last year. They'll all be better with a year of experience.

cycloneG · 04-24-2008, 03:29 PM

I don't believe it's possible to have Pro Bowl talent at every position. A team can have Pro Bowl talent at a few positions and if you can get above average players at the others then you're sitting better than most of the league. Edwards and Udeze tied for the team lead in sacks with 5 apiece. Allen had 15.5 by himself last season. That's a huge boost in talent on the edge of the dline. Also, with the added pressure Allen is going to bring, the secondary isn't going to have to cover receivers for as long which will make them look much better than they did last season.

ISUFan22 · 04-24-2008, 03:32 PM

Originally Posted by coopaloop72

As for trading draft picks...at the #17 spot, i don't think we would have gotten anybody noteworthy...

Are you serious???

Is that why the Vikings just sat on their hands when they had the 6th pick (I think it was the 6th anyways) a couple years ago, and let folks "budge" in front of them until they finally said to themselves...

"Well, we're not going to get anything out of this, but we may as well make a pick anyways"

I'm sorry, but that comment is just a very ridiculous statement and a crazy "justification" for trading that pick away. If you were referring to the #17 pick in the 6th round, you'd have a point.

Originally Posted by coopaloop72

In response to your first part. If you watched every Vikings game...like i did... the Vikes easily could have had 2 more wins earlier in the year against the chiefs and Lions.

Every single team in the league could say that...including the Patriots. And I don't even need to watch one second of football to know that. Even the lowly Raiders could say "we could've won a game or two more if (insert lame excuse here)."

coopaloop72 · 04-24-2008, 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by ISUFan22

Are you serious???

Is that why the Vikings just sat on their hands when they had the 6th pick (I think it was the 6th anyways) a couple years ago, and let folks "budge" in front of them until they finally said to themselves...

"Well, we're not going to get anything out of this, but we may as well make a pick anyways"

I'm sorry, but that comment is just a very ridiculous statement and a crazy "justification" for trading that pick away. If you were referring to the #17 pick in the 6th round, you'd have a point.

Every single team in the league could say that...including the Patriots. And I don't even need to watch one second of football to know that. Even the lowly Raiders could say "we could've won a game or two more if (insert lame excuse here)."

A top 10 pick like you're referencing to is way more valuable than a mid first round pick. Trading for jared allen and paying him is pretty much like us trading up and drafting a 26 year old pro-bowler 1st overall. We payed him 30 million guaranteed (what jake long got) and had to give up picks to get him.

As for the comment being ridiculous...i disagree...we have our RT of the future in Ryan Cook, basically anyone we would have drafted with #17 would be a backup this year anway. Look at our past mid first round picks: Udeze, Erasmus, Greenway....none of these people, nor anyone we would have drafted this year, would make an impact their rookie season the way Jared Allen will this year.

iccyfan · 04-24-2008, 04:26 PM

Packer fan weighing in, so take my thoughts with a grain of salt!

1) I agree that Allen will vastly improve the Viqueen defense immediately, but don't believe it will be enough to take them over the top in the way of an NFC Championship; heck, I don't even see them over-taking the Packers in the NFC North!

2) I'm thrilled to death they gave up three relatively high draft picks this year; love to see the Vikes potentially mortgaging their future!

3) The Packers have been blessed to have great personnel men for "most" of the past twenty years (Great Ron Wolf, Horrible Mike Sherman, Very Good Ted Thompson), allowing us to find excellent edge pass rushers without selling the farm. I believe Kampman and KGB to have been second day selections. If the vikes had a better personnel department, they wouldn't have to make blockbuster trades like this one...

ISUFan22 · 04-24-2008, 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by coopaloop72

A top 10 pick like you're referencing to is way more valuable than a mid first round pick. Trading for jared allen and paying him is pretty much like us trading up and drafting a 26 year old pro-bowler 1st overall. We payed him 30 million guaranteed (what jake long got) and had to give up picks to get him.

As for the comment being ridiculous...i disagree...we have our RT of the future in Ryan Cook, basically anyone we would have drafted with #17 would be a backup this year anway. Look at our past mid first round picks: Udeze, Erasmus, Greenway....none of these people, nor anyone we would have drafted this year, would make an impact their rookie season the way Jared Allen will this year.

This is what you said...

Originally Posted by coopaloop72

As for trading draft picks...at the #17 spot, i don't think we would have gotten anybody noteworthy...

Value between a #6 and #17 has nothing to do with it. Nor does impact possibilities for a #17 pick compared to what Allen's impact will be. Unless the Vikes drafted a bust, they most certainly would've gotten someone noteworthy in the first round.

Perhaps you and I define "noteworthy" in polar opposite ways.

coopaloop72 · 04-24-2008, 04:33 PM

Name somebody who would have realistically been there at #17 who would have been able to step in and do for the vikings what Jared Allen can do?...(that is be an all pro defensive player and help out the entire defense with a pass rush that has been non existant since the days of the purple people eaters)