NFL: Chargers

pulse · 11-17-2008, 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by cycloneworld

I'm not sure how much longer Kaeding will be in SD. He missed another crucial kick in the game yesterday. He has now missed 6 of his last 9 FGs between 40-49 yards. That isn't going to cut it in the NFL.

Maybe Dobbins can 'accidentally' take him out in practice.

sunset · 11-17-2008, 03:28 PM

Originally Posted by Tornado man

I'd bet the fans in KC, Cleveland, and now San Diego would gladly take "Marty Ball" back. He ran intense training camps, coached physical football, and demanded that his players give full effort for their paychecks. Again, it spoke volumes when LT publicly questioned the move to replace him. It turns out he could read the future.

I'm a Charger fan and I know a lot of other Charger fans. There are plenty that are more than happy that Marty is gone.

sunset · 11-17-2008, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by pulse

You obviously don't follow San Diego. The Chargers never ran Marty Ball (except that one playoff game). Cam Cameron was the OC with the Chargers for San Diego's high-powered offense, which Norv implemented said offense in San Diego earlier when he was the OC for the Chargers in 2001. Norv was hired to replace Marty because he implemented the offensive system and they wanted that continuity. Wade Phillips also left from that 14-2 team irrespective of Marty. Simplifying any issues on the Chargers as Marty vs. Norv is shortsighted and like saying global warming is caused completely by cows farting. The Chargers have had quite a shakeup in head coaching, offensive coordinator and defensive coordinator positions along with a slew of injuries to their major star players.

I agree in respect to his last year, everybody was shocked that he let loose. I seem to remember the year prior, when they didn't even come close to making the playoffs, that there was lots of talk of Marty Ball.

I agree with you though, this isn't Marty v Norv. Both of Marty's coordinators left town before Marty was fired. He was going to have a difficult time if he stayed.

As an aside, San Diego fans can't figure this thing out. Every week is a new complaint. First it was the D-coordinator, then it's the o-line, then the head coach, now it's River's fault. Unfortunately it's looking like the Chargers might have missed their window of opportunity and we can look forward to rebuilding behind Rivers and the good corps of young receivers. The only hope this year is that the Broncos are just as bad as the Chargers and they give the conference away. Otherwise it's tank the rest of the year and hope to benefit from the easy schedule next year.

Tornado man · 11-17-2008, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by pulse

You obviously don't follow San Diego. The Chargers never ran Marty Ball (except that one playoff game). Cam Cameron was the OC with the Chargers for San Diego's high-powered offense, which Norv implemented said offense in San Diego earlier when he was the OC for the Chargers in 2001. Norv was hired to replace Marty because he implemented the offensive system and they wanted that continuity. Wade Phillips also left from that 14-2 team irrespective of Marty. Simplifying any issues on the Chargers as Marty vs. Norv is shortsighted and like saying global warming is caused completely by cows farting. The Chargers have had quite a shakeup in head coaching, offensive coordinator and defensive coordinator positions along with a slew of injuries to their major star players.

"Marty Ball" means turning a losing franchise into a winning one:

Chargers 2004-2006 under Marty: 35-13
Chargers (virtually same players) 2007-2008 under Norv: 15-11

You do the math.

sunset · 11-17-2008, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by Tornado man

"Marty Ball" means turning a losing franchise into a winning one:

Chargers 2004-2006 under Marty: 35-13
Chargers (virtually same players) 2007-2008 under Norv: 15-11

You do the math.

How many playoff games has Marty won?
How many Super Bowls has Marty won?
How much talent has Marty had on his teams in Cleveland, KC, and San Diego?

He should have more of the first two with the talent level he has had at his disposal.

pulse · 11-17-2008, 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by sunset

As an aside, San Diego fans can't figure this thing out. Every week is a new complaint. First it was the D-coordinator, then it's the o-line, then the head coach, now it's River's fault. Unfortunately it's looking like the Chargers might have missed their window of opportunity and we can look forward to rebuilding behind Rivers and the good corps of young receivers. The only hope this year is that the Broncos are just as bad as the Chargers and they give the conference away. Otherwise it's tank the rest of the year and hope to benefit from the easy schedule next year.

I don't think they've missed the window. The Pittsburgh game was impressive in my opinion. They went in their on a freezing sloppy day and almost won. Pittsburgh is a really good team both offensively and defensively. I think the Steelers are the best team they've played all year and they should have won the game. The Chargers don't need to rebuild, they just need consistency.

Tornado man · 11-17-2008, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by sunset

How many playoff games has Marty won?
How many Super Bowls has Marty won?
How much talent has Marty had on his teams in Cleveland, KC, and San Diego?

He should have more of the first two with the talent level he has had at his disposal.

Hey, I am not that much of a Chargers fan. But if you cannot see a clear difference between a team just two years after being 14-2 and now, then you must be blind. The intensity level, the physicality, the toughness of the team under Marty is gone. How can you not see that?
Teams take on the personality of their head coach. The Chargers were big on fundamentals and discipline under Marty. That has disappeared.
Regarding all this "talent" you speak of: maybe the players haven't been all that talented, but instead were pushed and inspired to "over-achieve" under Marty.

sunset · 11-17-2008, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by pulse

I don't think they've missed the window. The Pittsburgh game was impressive in my opinion. They went in their on a freezing sloppy day and almost won. Pittsburgh is a really good team both offensively and defensively. I think the Steelers are the best team they've played all year and they should have won the game. The Chargers don't need to rebuild, they just need consistency.

I hope you are right.

sunset · 11-17-2008, 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by Tornado man

Hey, I am not that much of a Chargers fan. But if you cannot see a clear difference between a team just two years after being 14-2 and now, then you must be blind. The intensity level, the physicality, the toughness of the team under Marty is gone. How can you not see that?
Teams take on the personality of their head coach. The Chargers were big on fundamentals and discipline under Marty. That has disappeared.
Regarding all this "talent" you speak of: maybe the players haven't been all that talented, but instead were pushed and inspired to "over-achieve" under Marty.

How can you not see that Norv took the same exact players, most of the key players being injured, and went to the AFC championship while Marty couldn't win a playoff game with those players in their prime and healthy?

I'm not saying Norv is the answer, as I've said several times already, but if you can't see that Marty wasn't then I'll ask you the same question; how can you be so blind?

Tornado man · 11-17-2008, 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by sunset

How can you not see that Norv took the same exact players, most of the key players being injured, and went to the AFC championship while Marty couldn't win a playoff game with those players in their prime and healthy?

I'm not saying Norv is the answer, as I've said several times already, but if you can't see that Marty wasn't then I'll ask you the same question; how can you be so blind?

You can say what you want about Marty, but his teams, wherever he coached, were always prepared, inspired, and never quit. Heck, even in 2003, the 4-12 year for you guys, the team was tough as nails, and never gave up. That was because of Marty. You can't say that now. The Chargers now look awful.
Schottenheimer's ex-players and coaches speak of him almost with reverence. Listen to LT, to Castillo. Bill Cowher and Tony Dungy, both of whom coached and were mentored under the man, proudly credit their philosophies and success to him. To criticize Schottenheimer as a coach and leader is laughable.

sunset · 11-17-2008, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by Tornado man

You can say what you want about Marty, but his teams, wherever he coached, were always prepared, inspired, and never quit. Heck, even in 2003, the 4-12 year for you guys, the team was tough as nails, and never gave up. That was because of Marty. You can't say that now. The Chargers now look awful.
Schottenheimer's ex-players and coaches speak of him almost with reverence. Listen to LT, to Castillo. Bill Cowher and Tony Dungy, both of whom coached and were mentored under the man, proudly credit their philosophies and success to him. To criticize Schottenheimer as a coach and leader is laughable.

Nobody can say he wasn't given a fair chance, he had multiple teams with tons of talent and he didn't have it in him. If you are happy with a coach who does well in the regular season but can't win in the playoffs then Marty is your guy. 14-2 with the easiest schedule in the NFL and a first game playoff exit doesn't do it for me.

You apparently aren't going to answer my questions so I am going to give up.

ISUFan22 · 11-17-2008, 04:51 PM

Marty vs Norv vs Herm - whatever. All of their teams have either stunk or underachieved at some point. The only thing Norv has done in SD that Marty couldn't was lose a lot of games.

If the Chargers front office was smart (this is a stretch), they'd make a serious play for Cowher at the end of Week 17. Like, hand him the keys and step back play for the guy.

He's not the best FB coach ever, but he's damn good one and is the only one of his caliber that is available. And I think they guy would take the job if he were given some serious control.

And - he'd win in SD, I'm sure of it.

Clones85' · 11-17-2008, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by sunset

How can you not see that Norv took the same exact players, most of the key players being injured, and went to the AFC championship while Marty couldn't win a playoff game with those players in their prime and healthy?

I'm not saying Norv is the answer, as I've said several times already, but if you can't see that Marty wasn't then I'll ask you the same question; how can you be so blind?

It generally takes a year or two for the old coaches attitude to rub off the players and the new coaches to take effect.

Last year's Chargers team was not 1/2 as good as the previous years team. You can argue it was Norv all you want, but you would be wrong.

Fact is, it was not Marty who dropped the punt. It was not Marty who intercepted a pass and than fumbled. Marty is 10X the coach that Norv Turner is

sunset · 11-17-2008, 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by ISUFan22

Marty vs Norv vs Herm - whatever. All of their teams have either stunk or underachieved at some point.

If the Chargers front office was smart (this is a stretch), they'd make a serious play for Cowher at the end of Week 17. Like, hand him the keys and step back play for the guy.

He's not the best FB coach ever, but he's damn good one and is the only one of his caliber that is available. And I think they guy would take the job if he were given some serious control.

And - he'd win in SD, I'm sure of it.

That was my first pick when they hired Norv, word was he wouldn't have coached anywhere that year. I'd be happy with him since it looks like Norv is probably done when they miss the playoffs.

Of course, the owners keep tight purse strings so we might be looking at Ron Rivera (It was pretty obvious he was brought in as a fall back for d-coordinator and head coach should things go south). Not sure how I'd feel about Rivera as head coach.

pulse · 11-17-2008, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by ISUFan22

Marty vs Norv vs Herm - whatever. All of their teams have either stunk or underachieved at some point. The only thing Norv has done in SD that Marty couldn't was lose a lot of games.

If the Chargers front office was smart (this is a stretch), they'd make a serious play for Cowher at the end of Week 17. Like, hand him the keys and step back play for the guy.

He's not the best FB coach ever, but he's damn good one and is the only one of his caliber that is available. And I think they guy would take the job if he were given some serious control.

And - he'd win in SD, I'm sure of it.

I'm sure Ohio State could never win the Big XII if they were in our conference.