Vince Young to issue an ultimatum?

[cmoneyr]

This is an irrelevant argument for multiple reasons. But are you seriously pretending that Vick isn't a franchise caliber QB?

He is a franchise caliber athlete, not QB.

[Cydkar]

This is an irrelevant argument for multiple reasons. But are you seriously pretending that Vick isn't a franchise caliber QB?

That's exactly what I'm saying. I think facts are on my side with both of these players. Physical talent isn't the whole story with quarterbacks. Jeff George, Ryan Leaf...

I don't care if you can throw the ball on a rope for 60 yards or can run a 4.3 40 if you have the brain of a teenager.

[TheGovernator]

This is an irrelevant argument for multiple reasons. But are you seriously pretending that Vick isn't a franchise caliber QB?

Well, to be fair to Cydkar, Matt Ryan did step in as a rookie and match the best record Vick had his last 5 years in Atlanta. IS Vick a franchise QB? No. WAS he? I guess so. He was certainly the face of the team.

[EddieISU]

Vince doesn't have the arm strength,hence why a 37 year-old Collins played last year because he can make the deep 15 and out passes routinely. The only way Vince will be starting again is if he goes back to his rookie season when he actually ran the ball. But Vince knows his career and games as a qb are numbered if he does that.

[egami]

That's exactly what I'm saying. I think facts are on my side with both of these players. Physical talent isn't the whole story with quarterbacks. Jeff George, Ryan Leaf...

I don't care if you can throw the ball on a rope for 60 yards or can run a 4.3 40 if you have the brain of a teenager.

I think the main problem is you are extrapolating more out of what my opinion of VY, or Vick, than what is there.

[egami]

Well, to be fair to Cydkar, Matt Ryan did step in as a rookie and match the best record Vick had his last 5 years in Atlanta. IS Vick a franchise QB? No. WAS he? I guess so. He was certainly the face of the team.

I never said Matt Ryan wasn't a better QB. I fully expect Matt Ryan to end up being better than Vick.

[pulse]

I think the main problem is you are extrapolating more out of what my opinion of VY, or Vick, than what is there.

How is that a problem? I think the "problem" is is that your definition of franchise QB is different, i.e. lower. You think these guys can be franchise QBs. So if you owned a team (I'm extrapolating) you would want them to be your guy? I wouldn't. They aren't going to win me a Super Bowl.

[jdoggivjc]

What's your point? Maybe that is a better question.

I think I made my point clear in the first reply. I think people are being hyper-critical of a guy who still has a chance to develop into a franchise QB in this league.

I am far from a VY fan...I could as easily see him tanking as rising, and I acknowledge his response was in need of maturing...but he has demonstrated success and there is still valid opportunity for him to succeed in this league.

You stated that Young has a point in issuing ultimatums because he won as the Titans QB. My point, if you couldn't gather it from my post, was "the Titans winning with Vince Young" in the past is hardly a reason for Young to be issuing ultimatums at the Titans, particularly when the Titans went 12-3 with Collins as the starter last year and 1-1 with Young as the starter.

Also, for the bolded part, these are probably the same people that thought that Michael Vick was going to be the most dynamic QB ever to play in this league. The problem with that assertion is while the Falcons did win and won in impression fashion with Vick as the QB, at other times they tended to lose about as often as they won, often due to critical mistakes that Vick was making on the playing field. In fact, there were debates among Falcons fans and NFL fans in general if the Falcons would be better off in the long run if they had someone other than Vick as the QB (and, unfortunately, it took a dog-fighting ring to show that those "other" fans were right). The further problem for Young is HE'S NO VICK! Vick at least showed the capability of throwing the ball downfield, so defenses had to respect that, which opened all kinds of holes for Vick to run through. Young has yet to show that kind of capability, and in fact, it more appears the Titans had been winning in spite of their offensive output instead of because of it.

Quite frankly, I really fail to see where Young has done much of anything up to this point to be issuing "play-me-or-trade-me" ultimatums at the Titans. I can appreciate the fact that he feels like he could be making more of a difference on the field for another team as opposed to sitting on the Titans' bench, but I fail to see where he's accomplished anything in his short career that allows him to demand anything from the Titans organization at this point short of his weekly paycheck.

[egami]

You stated that Young has a point in issuing ultimatums because he won as the Titans QB.

Provide that quote. That was never my point.

[jdoggivjc]

Provide that quote. That was never my point.

Oh no? Tie the following two posts together, and, although you said that he could have handled the situation together, it is clearly visible you think he has a point.

I think people are being a little hyper-critical on this. Yes, it wasn't phrased the best, but this is a guy that won ROY and has demonstrated he can play in the league and win. Make fun of his lack of NFL passing game as you will but what he did with Tennessee with the lack of skill position athletes was amazing.

He needs a lot of polishing for the pro game yet. He needs even more mental maturity, but there is potential there if he gets with the right coach and system for him to be Vick-esque.

He won games. That's the most important stat.

[egami]

How is that a problem? I think the "problem" is is that your definition of franchise QB is different, i.e. lower. You think these guys can be franchise QBs. So if you owned a team (I'm extrapolating) you would want them to be your guy? I wouldn't. They aren't going to win me a Super Bowl.

It's a problem because people are insinuating and assuming things that aren't my point.

A franchise QB, by definition, is a guy that can be starting caliber in the NFL that you can build around and keep for the long haul. Not necessarily an elite level QB.

Atlanta sucked in the Vick era, but I don't think it was a Vick problem so much as a front office/personnel problem. I think Vick has the talent to be a QB that can get teams to the playoffs.

If you disagree, so be it. He isn't the stereotypical pocket-passer. But given a team with a top ten defense and a reasonable OL and skill position players in the right system I think he is a very good QB.

I largely think it was Atlanta's fault for not being able to build around him versus him having a lack of talent to be in the NFL as a franchise QB.

[egami]

Oh no? Tie the following two posts together, and, although you said that he could have handled the situation together, it is clearly visible you think he has a point.

I do think he has a point...I think he realizes he has talent and potential to be a starter in this league, but don't twist that into me supporting him being a position to give an ultimatum.

[jdoggivjc]

It's a problem because people are insinuating and assuming things that aren't my point.

A franchise QB, by definition, is a guy that can be starting caliber in the NFL that you can build around and keep for the long haul. Not necessarily an elite level QB.

Atlanta sucked in the Vick era, but I don't think it was a Vick problem so much as a front office/personnel problem. I think Vick has the talent to be a QB that can get teams to the playoffs.

If you disagree, so be it. He isn't the stereotypical pocket-passer. But given a team with a top ten defense and a reasonable OL and skill position players in the right system I think he is a very good QB.

I largely think it was Atlanta's fault for not being able to build around him versus him having a lack of talent to be in the NFL as a franchise QB.

Being a Falcons fan I can attest that not everything was Vick's fault. The owner (his name is slipping me at the moment) treated Vick like his own son, so it was apparent that Vick was the favored person in the organization.

I also think that a lot of Vick's completion % issues had a lot to do with the fact that his receiving corps were just as likely to put perfectly-thrown passes onto the turf as they were to hang onto it.

That being said, while Vick often threw perfect passes, at times he would throw other passes into the ground 5 yards in front of wide-open receivers as well as badly overthrow, over lead, and throw behind them - he never constantly displayed the accuracy to go with that arm strength. Also, while Vick showed potential for leadership abilities on the field, it was clear he was not developing the off-the-field leadership abilities and was showing a penchant for participating in illegal activities (such as the incense-scented Aquafina bottle and his dog-fighting ring).

[jdoggivjc]

I do think he has a point...I think he realizes he has talent and potential to be a starter in this league, but don't twist that into me supporting him being a position to give an ultimatum.

And I said he might have a point that he thinks he is probably better served starting for another team as opposed to riding the pine with the Titans. But he's hardly done anything up to this point that warrants him issuing ultimatums, which, while you've said was possibly ill-advised, you have defended.

[egami]

Being a Falcons fan I can attest that not everything was Vick's fault. The owner (his name is slipping me at the moment) treated Vick like his own son, so it was apparent that Vick was the favored person in the organization.

I also think that a lot of Vick's completion % issues had a lot to do with the fact that his receiving corps were just as likely to put perfectly-thrown passes onto the turf as they were to hang onto it.

That being said, while Vick often threw perfect passes, at times he would throw other passes into the ground 5 yards in front of wide-open receivers as well as badly overthrow, over lead, and throw behind them - he never constantly displayed the accuracy to go with that arm strength. Also, while Vick showed potential for leadership abilities on the field, it was clear he was not developing the off-the-field leadership abilities and was showing a penchant for participating in illegal activities (such as the incense-scented Aquafina bottle and his dog-fighting ring).

Yeah, clearly Vick isn't, and never was meant to be, a prolific passer. That's why I stated it the way I did...you need the organization to build around him properly, the right offense, the right coach...and you're exactly right, the off-field crap was a hindrance even if all the props WERE in place for his success.

And I said he might have a point that he thinks he is probably better served starting for another team as opposed to riding the pine with the Titans. But he's hardly done anything up to this point that warrants him issuing ultimatums, which, while you've said was possibly ill-advised, you have defended.

No, I never once defended him issuing an ultimatum. Sorry, if you read that perception that's you reading into my statements.

I am simply not making the assumption this is an ultimatum. I think it's just a young kid who made a statement from heart without using his head and was just being brutally honest. I don't think it was meant as a mandate to the team. I think he was just being what we typically want athletes to be...transparent.