Why is David Ortiz Sucking?

**CylentButDeadly** · 06-09-2009, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by Clones85'

33 in baseball years isn't that old. Especially for a guy that DH's a lot. Steroids end of story

What we saw in the "Juiced" era though is that player's primes were extended into their mid-to-late 30s. With the presumed absence of PEDs (and I know that's a pretty bold thing to say), we might revert back to the 80s and the era of "deadball". With that as well, players skills might really start to decline once they hit 32-35. It happened that way in baseball for 80 years, there's no reason to think that a trend as evident as human aging won't be reestablished.

And yes, I realize nutrition and trainging have improved.

**HiltonMagic** · 06-09-2009, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by CrossCyed

Bill Simmons actually wrote a Boston column? Wow!

He's should not be a featured writer in ESPN until they signify his column is Boston-exclusive. The man sucks.

Let's see, his last 10 columns:

Retro diary of NBA Finals Game 2 - Not Boston
NBA Finals Mailbag - Not Boston
Ortiz column - Boston
Column on officials in the NBA Playoffs - Not Boston
2-part Mailbag - Not Boston
3-part discussion with Malcolm Gladwell - Not Boston
NHL column - Not Boston
Manny column - Boston (but was definitely more than just a Boston story)
Retro diary of Rockets-Lakers Game 1 - Not Boston
Column on player interaction - Not Boston

So he wrote about Boston about 15% of the time. Yup, sure sounds like he's a 'Boston-exclusive' writer to me.

**MidwestZest** · 06-09-2009, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by 06Panther

Its hard to believe that it could be steroids? What planet have you been living on?

1. See the rest of that post. I say why. Maybe I should have said "exclusively" steroids. It sure as hell COULD be contributing.
2. Holy Crap I knew there was a reason you were on my ignore list. Stupid "view post" button.....

**thatguy** · 06-09-2009, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by Cyclonestate78

He may be the best right handed hitter ever but he was an enormous liability in the field. Manny had an arm like jello and struggled to catch even simple fly balls. As a Red Sox fan I am soooooooooooooooooooooooooo glad that sack of **** is not in Boston anymore.

You're only saying that because he is gone. Nobody was saying, "We can't have Manny in left" when Boston was winning World Series. and if I have a pie thrower in left so be it, if that pie thrower hits .320/25/115

**jdoggivjc** · 06-09-2009, 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by Cyclonestate78

He may be the best right handed hitter ever but he was an enormous liability in the field. Manny had an arm like jello and struggled to catch even simple fly balls. As a Red Sox fan I am soooooooooooooooooooooooooo glad that sack of **** is not in Boston anymore.

Thus, being a fan of both the Twins and the Mets, why I have never said I wanted him to play for either team. While he swings a pretty good bat, there's a lot of baggage that comes with it - for starters, the poor defense that you mentioned as well as a mouth that duct tape couldn't keep shut and an attitude I wouldn't necessarily want in my clubhouse.

Originally Posted by thatguy

You're only saying that because he is gone. Nobody was saying, "We can't have Manny in left" when Boston was winning World Series. and if I have a pie thrower in left so be it, if that pie thrower hits .320/25/115

Even when the Red Sox were tearing it up with Manny I wasn't secretly pining for the Twins to trade half of their farm system to acquire him...

**swammi** · 06-09-2009, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by DavClone

He is reverting back to the way he was with the Twins. He sucked then too.

No Manny there, either. No Manny + Father Time = David sucks

**RayShimley** · 06-09-2009, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by Cyclonestate78

He may be the best right handed hitter ever but he was an enormous liability in the field. Manny had an arm like jello and struggled to catch even simple fly balls. As a Red Sox fan I am soooooooooooooooooooooooooo glad that sack of **** is not in Boston anymore.

I wouldn't go that far. He played a pretty big part in the 2004/2007 WS titles. I won't argue that he had to go last year though, I was willing to put up with it up to that point. When the clubhouse turned on him, I knew it was over.

**Chainsaw** · 06-09-2009, 03:32 PM

I've watched power hitters decline in the mid thirties all my life, that is, until Steroids and Barry Bonds came along. I don't assume this is due to steroids or that he ever used them.

**shagcarpetjesus** · 06-09-2009, 04:19 PM

There's really no way to know at this point whether Papi's decline is PED-related. But I think perhaps the biggest factor is his body type. As a general rule: big, plodding, unathletic sluggers don't tend to age well. Just look at Travis Hafner. Guys like Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Barry Bonds, Carlos Beltran are the ones who stick around forever and have productive careers, even if they put on weight as they get older. It's pretty clear that Bonds had "additional help" as he aged, but it doesn't change the fact that in general really athletic, all-around players tend to be the ones who age well.

**mplscyclone** · 06-09-2009, 04:41 PM

Originally Posted by CrossCyed

Yea, I'd rather let Ortiz try to beat me, because Manny, up there with Frank Thomas, is the best right handed hitter of our generation.

And one of the biggest chokers :)

That said, I think Pujols is probably better.

**CrossCyed** · 06-09-2009, 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by mplscyclone

And one of the biggest chokers :)

That said, I think Pujols is probably better.

Frank Thomas still hasn't been connected to steroids in any way. He did it naturally. The book isn't written on Pujols yet, either, although he's been connected through some hearsay.

**HiltonMagic** · 06-09-2009, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by CrossCyed

Frank Thomas still hasn't been connected to steroids in any way. He did it naturally. The book isn't written on Pujols yet, either, although he's been connected through some hearsay.

Didn't you know, Pujols is a machine?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ml0O-wPwsVU]YouTube - Pujols SportsCenter Commercial[/ame]

**mplscyclone** · 06-09-2009, 04:48 PM

Regarding Manny's defense: I don't think most of you realize how little effect outfield defense has on wins and losses. Yes it was bad, but what he does at the plate makes up (and then some) for the poor defense.

**mplscyclone** · 06-09-2009, 04:48 PM

Originally Posted by CrossCyed

Frank Thomas still hasn't been connected to steroids in any way. He did it naturally. The book isn't written on Pujols yet, either, although he's been connected through some hearsay.

So if someone did steroids they cannot be the greatest hitter of our generation then?

**isucyfan** · 06-09-2009, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by mplscyclone

Regarding Manny's defense: I don't think most of you realize how little effect outfield defense has on wins and losses. Yes it was bad, but what he does at the plate makes up (and then some) for the poor defense.

I would kind of disagree with that. Especially after seeing my Mets lose 2 of the first 5 games of the season due to their new left fielder, who is inept in the field. Over the course of a season, I would guess that the outfield can cost teams 5-10 games. Many times, in close games, missing the cutoff man or a fielding error loses a game. They do in the infield, too, but errors in the outfield are magnified, as they are less common.

You do hope that bad fielders are a net positive when factoring in their hitting, though. And I agree that Manny is a huge net gain, despite his outfield adventures.