ISU's academic rankings decline continues

  • After Iowa State won the Big 12, a Cyclone made a wonderful offer to We Will that now increases our match. Now all gifts up to $400,000 between now and the Final 4 will be matched. Please consider giving at We Will Collective.
    This notice can be dismissed using the upper right corner X button.

ArgentCy

Well-Known Member
Jan 13, 2010
20,387
11,176
113
Excellent article in The Atlantic about the role college really plays in our society --

https://www.theatlantic.com/technol...=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share

I thought you might enjoy reading it and squaring it with your concerns about ISU's rankings, @Cypow.

Tl/dr version.

You don't need to spend $60,000 / year to be an idiot and party for a couple years. In addition, the education part has long been overvalued. Even if that's not the writers conclusion.
 

Sigmapolis

Minister of Economy
SuperFanatic
SuperFanatic T2
Aug 10, 2011
24,876
36,700
113
Waukee
I think you missed the mark here a little.

You don't need to spend $60,000 / year to be an idiot and party for a couple years.

Actually, yes, you do. For young adults, the college experience is the Las Vegas experience. Sure, you can go to Tama to have a cheaper version of it close to home, but I think we all know it isn't quite like the real thing.

If you want the real and full version of that experience, then you have to pay up. You ain't ever going to party in your hometown with your friends from high school like you would in Las Vegas or while you're in college.

In addition, the education part has long been overvalued. Even if that's not the writers conclusion.

I thought that was one of his main points, actually --

Appealing to educational renewal, meanwhile, overlooks the hard truth that the collegiate way never lost its way; teaching and learning’s central role was always somewhat mythical, no matter how much critics such as Warner might wish things used to be otherwise.

Rare (and refreshing) to see an academic come out and say that in print.
 

Cypow

Member
Apr 27, 2020
90
48
18
Excellent article in The Atlantic about the role college really plays in our society --

https://www.theatlantic.com/technol...=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share

I thought you might enjoy reading it and squaring it with your concerns about ISU's rankings, @Cypow.

Excellent article, thanks for sharing. Unfortunately, it doesn't do much to address my concerns. :confused:

Even if education truly is the secondary purpose of higher education, ISU's performance in education is declining. Students might be drawn to collegiate life more than anything, but better students will be looking for the university experience at the schools with better academics.

In case anyone needs another reminder, here's an article that summarizes ISU's and UoI's drop in the US News Global Rankings. It's quite bleak.

 

Sigmapolis

Minister of Economy
SuperFanatic
SuperFanatic T2
Aug 10, 2011
24,876
36,700
113
Waukee
Excellent article, thanks for sharing. Unfortunately, it doesn't do much to address my concerns. :confused:

Even if education truly is the secondary purpose of higher education, ISU's performance in education is declining. Students might be drawn to collegiate life more than anything, but better students will be looking for the university experience at the schools with better academics.

In case anyone needs another reminder, here's an article that summarizes ISU's and UoI's drop in the US News Global Rankings. It's quite bleak.


I have always been a proponent of the signaling model of education -- the point of the degree is more often not what you learn but signaling to employers your intelligence, persistence, and conscientiousness.

Now, I am not an absolutist about this theory. School does teach useful skills, particularly in early childhood. Everybody needs to be literate and numerate at a basic level in our society to succeed. In the pantheon of universities out there, Iowa State ranks pretty highly in the practicality of its instruction given the dominance of the school by its agriculture, engineering, and science programs. Liberal arts is a relative afterthought in Ames.

This is why the ranking is so critical. If education is mostly signaling, it is all perception and not actually the quality of your instruction, and the U.S. News list (as flawed as it obviously is) is how people judge these things.

This is why universities warp their operations and policies to try and game their way upwards.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cypow

Cypow

Member
Apr 27, 2020
90
48
18
I have always been a proponent of the signaling model of education -- the point of the degree is more often not what you learn but signaling to employers your intelligence, persistence, and conscientiousness.

Now, I am not an absolutist about this theory. School does teach useful skills, particularly in early childhood. Everybody needs to be literate and numerate at a basic level in our society to succeed. In the pantheon of universities out there, Iowa State ranks pretty highly in the practicality of its instruction given the dominance of the school by its agriculture, engineering, and science programs. Liberal arts is a relative afterthought in Ames.

This is why the ranking is so critical. If education is mostly signaling, it is all perception and not actually the quality of your instruction, and the U.S. News list (as flawed as it obviously is) is how people judge these things.

This is why universities warp their operations and policies to try and game their way upwards.

When it comes to the signaling theory, I mostly agree. But I think there is a spectrum.

For example, someone with a degree in chemical engineering is obviously going to be much better equipped to enter that field than an equally bright person who did not study ChemEng. I think MDs would mostly be an exception from signaling theory, but I understand that that is totally different from an undergrad degree. I'm sure signaling plays a role in the more competitive specialities, but you get the idea.

On the polar opposite of the spectrum, an example would be an elite MBA (Harvard, Stanford, Chicago, Wharton). These degrees are almost pure signaling. Essentially, if you got into the program, you have the "mark of approval", and what you take away from the coursework is up to you. It doesn't matter, blue chip employers will be lining up to hire you regardless.

And then there's everything in-between. I'm mostly in agreement with your take on signaling, but I think there is some nuance to consider.
 

Sigmapolis

Minister of Economy
SuperFanatic
SuperFanatic T2
Aug 10, 2011
24,876
36,700
113
Waukee
When it comes to the signaling theory, I mostly agree. But I think there is a spectrum.

For example, someone with a degree in chemical engineering is obviously going to be much better equipped to enter that field than an equally bright person who did not study ChemEng. I think MDs would mostly be an exception from signaling theory, but I understand that that is totally different from an undergrad degree. I'm sure signaling plays a role in the more competitive specialities, but you get the idea.

On the polar opposite of the spectrum, an example would be an elite MBA (Harvard, Stanford, Chicago, Wharton). These degrees are almost pure signaling. Essentially, if you got into the program, you have the "mark of approval", and what you take away from the coursework is up to you. It doesn't matter, blue chip employers will be lining up to hire you regardless.

And then there's everything in-between. I'm mostly in agreement with your take on signaling, but I think there is some nuance to consider.

My wife took undergraduate degrees in biology and Spanish before going to medical school. She told me she uses approximately 0% of her undergraduate biology training in her daily job as an emergency room doctor. The Spanish is the opposite and very useful — she is often the dedicated “medical Spanish” person and sometimes even called upon as a translator. Then again, she told me she learned most of her Spanish through long summer study abroad programs in Latin American countries, particularly Mexico, rather than anything out of a book or in class.

She told me she uses maybe 10% of her medical school training on a regular basis. Most of her actual education on how to be a doctor came “on the job” as a resident and fellow. So even for something as intellectually challenging as medicine, the signaling model (during the rat race for undergraduate and medical school admissions and then during residency match) is dominant. It is still mostly about gaining your admission, like your MBA example, more than it is about what you learn until you have to hit the ground as a resident under attending physicians.

Engineering is probably the best example of a practical major where the course content is useful, but I do not know enough about it to really judge it. I tend to think most professional programs, including law and medicine, are mostly about being admitted into the guild more than anything you learn in a classroom. You learn how to be a professional from other professionals in the real world, not in academia, at least most of the time.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cypow