Sad, sad state of affairs

[cloneswereall]

So you admit that we are one of the top 5 most storied programs in the nation, but not elite, and never have been. Interesting.

So is wrestling different than any other sport in this sense? Being a top 5 storied program in any other sport would be an elite program.

Wrestling is extremely top-heavy.

For the sake of argument, if two schools owned 40 football national championships (Bama and Notre Dame), and out of the other 40 or so that have been awarded, the next highest total number was 5 championships, would you consider that third place school to be on the same level as the two schools that own 40 combined?

 

[matclone]

let's look at KJ's Top 100 ISU recruits:
#45 Weatherman
#16 Finch
#29 Cozart
#60 M Moreno
#65 Garson
#98 Goettl
#97 Weatherman
#2 McCauley
#5 Meeks
#47 G Moreno
#100 Bauer
#100 Woiwor
#31 Boston
#48 Rodriguez-Spencer
#56 Harrington

That's 15 Top 100 recruits 5AA/1NC and 0 Top 10 team placings.

That is the track record we are turning these recruits over to:
#31 Simmons
#80 DiBlasi
#11 Colbray
#35 Storr
#51 Vega
#80 Parker
#84 Gremmel
Allar
Coleman
Gomez
Leisure
Smith

Not certain what you're telling us. That some of KJ's recruits weren't successful? I expect we'd find that with any program. Others were successful.

Your list omits AAs Earl Hall and Pat Downey. Why did they come to Iowa State? Why are we now getting these great recruiting classes if the program's in the tank?

I have no confidence in KJ's ability to develop the talent in the room. You chose a couple names now let me add a few to your list.
This years team:
Hall - Is he better today than 3 yrs ago?

Maybe not. But then he hasn't regressed either.

Weatherspoon - Is he better today vs 4 yrs ago?

Of course he is.

Q - 5 yr project is he better?

There has been some progress, yes

we believe as a fan base that the leader of our program has the culture in place to take these recruits and make ISU into a top 10 program?

We've been barely out of the top 10 the past four years. I don't know why we can't break in.

My Top 5 to interview:
Popolizio
Cody Sanderson
Perry
Dresser
Reader

I suspect Cody Sanderson could have already had any of a number of head coaching jobs (in addition to the one he had at Utah Valley). I don't know, but I kind of doubt he would leave his brother.

 

[Dr.bannedman]

we gotta do better. new leader.

 

[NEICyFan]

Arguing over the definition of "elite" is little more than a smokescreen to take the focus off an underachieving program. Elite, nothing. We are staring down the barrel of a 7th straight season where we won't even be in the top 10.

 

[Gerbs]

Okay. Can we seriously stop comparing today to 50 years ago? Jesus. Are you going to claim Minnesota as an elite football program? Because they won 5 national championships in 7 years one time. Nevermind that it was 80 years ago.

They certainly were an elite football program

 

[nfrine]

Having had the opportunity to watch the decline (I was around when Gable, the Petersons, Taylor and others started here) it has been disappointing. ISU was elite back then. The decline has accelerated over the past 10 years to the point we are no longer a wrestling school.

 

[clonedude]

Arguing over the definition of "elite" is little more than a smokescreen to take the focus off an underachieving program. Elite, nothing. We are staring down the barrel of a 7th straight season where we won't even be in the top 10.

I never said we are still elite, but I argued that we once were, and if you once were and you are a top 5 storied program in the sport, then you should be able to attract a pretty top level coach IMO. Some have said that basically nobody would be interested in the job that would be any better than KJ. I just don't know if I agree with that. I think we still have a name in the sport and a history.

 

[matclone]

The decline has accelerated over the past 10 years to the point we are no longer a wrestling school.

Your evidence for this is what?

 

[matclone]

I never said we are still elite, but I argued that we once were, and if you once were and you are a top 5 storied program in the sport, then you should be able to attract a pretty top level coach IMO. Some have said that basically nobody would be interested in the job that would be any better than KJ. I just don't know if I agree with that. I think we still have a name in the sport and a history.

I'm sure the school's history still carries a lot of weight--as you suggest. In part why were able to attract a pretty top level coach like KJ--Olympic and NCAA champion, national freestyle coach and all that. I would call it a plum job for any top level coach except that there's an element of the fan base that distinctly does not support the coach (see this thread), and by extension, the team. When you see comments like NEICy's claim that "we won't even be in the top 10 [this year]" you have to wonder if all the negativity will turn into a self fulfilling prophecy.

 

[clonedude]

I'm sure the school's history still carries a lot of weight--as you suggest. In part why were able to attract a pretty top level coach like KJ--Olympic and NCAA champion, national freestyle coach and all that. I would call it a plum job for any top level coach except that there's an element of the fan base that distinctly does not support the coach (see this thread), and by extension, the team. When you see comments like NEICy's claim that "we won't even be in the top 10 [this year]" you have to wonder if all this negativity will become a self fulfilling prophecy.

This is just the truth. Why would anyone think we'll finish in the top 10 this year? We couldn't finish in the top 15 at the Midlands. Truth hurts. Do you think it would all be better if everyone on here just believed we were really good when we aren't that everything will magically get better?

Don't get me wrong though, a big part of me wants to keep KJ for 2-3 more years to see what he can do with these new recruits coming in.

 

[matclone]

This is just the truth. Why would anyone think we'll finish in the top 10 this year?

I don't know. Maybe the fact we have three returning All-Americans, and that we might qualify more weights than we did last year.

We couldn't finish in the top 15 at the Midlands. Truth hurts.

Except that your statement isn't true. We finished 12th at Midlands, which did not include any points from our 5th place finisher at 141 (Storr).

Do you think it would all be better if everyone on here just believed we were really good when we aren't that everything will magically get better?

No one has made that claim.

get me wrong though, a big part of me wants to keep KJ for 2-3 more years to see what he can do with these new recruits coming in.

I would like to see that too.

 

[cloneswereall]

I never said we are still elite, but I argued that we once were, and if you once were and you are a top 5 storied program in the sport, then you should be able to attract a pretty top level coach IMO. Some have said that basically nobody would be interested in the job that would be any better than KJ. I just don't know if I agree with that. I think we still have a name in the sport and a history.

I agree with you for the most part. And I pretty much have the same sentiments as you do, just semantically I think differently on the elite. We're a top tier program that can (and does) attract a lot of talent.

KJ has his faults, and I think everyone (coaches and athletes included) has been frustrated with the issues that have shown up in regards to dual wins and team placings in tournaments.

I just feel that the program has started to shift the past couple of years in terms of recruits coming in and who is in the CWC for training. Almost like things have adjusted a bit for the better. What does that mean for this year? Honestly, probably not a whole lot. But the things I continue to hear and see from the RS class right now give me a lot of hope and optimism to work with.

Like I said earlier in the thread, I'm not necessarily happy with where we are as a program right now, but things I have heard from people I trust more than random fan #3 hold a bit more weight than all the hand wringing that goes on in this forum after every competition.

 

[Judoka]

This is just the truth. Why would anyone think we'll finish in the top 10 this year? We couldn't finish in the top 15 at the Midlands. Truth hurts. Do you think it would all be better if everyone on here just believed we were really good when we aren't that everything will magically get better?

Don't get me wrong though, a big part of me wants to keep KJ for 2-3 more years to see what he can do with these new recruits coming in.

Got 12th actually. What made you think we didn't finish in the top 15?

 

[ca4cy]

Got 12th actually. What made you think we didn't finish in the top 15?

I didn't think we did either. I saw something scrolling across during the finals on BTN that said we were in the 20s. Must have been rankings.

 

[lionnusmb]

Would someone with more knowledge of tournament scoring determine how many more points we would have scored with Storr's points? What place would this have put us in?

He had a really good tournament. I don't think anybody expected him to excel like he did.

 

[cloneswereall]

Would someone with more knowledge of tournament scoring determine how many more points we would have scored with Storr's points? What place would this have put us in?

He had a really good tournament. I don't think anybody expected him to excel like he did.

I think he would have scored 7.5 points before placement points were awarded. I always forget if it's 2 points for advancing champ side and 1 point conso advancement or if it's 1/0.5 for advancement. It would have been enough to move from 12th to 9th

 

[BCClone]

He would have scored about 14-15 points without looking at bonus points or front or back placement differences. That would have put us at 8 place.

 

[Judoka]

Would someone with more knowledge of tournament scoring determine how many more points we would have scored with Storr's points? What place would this have put us in?

He had a really good tournament. I don't think anybody expected him to excel like he did.

He scored 14 points. Depending on who he would have replaced in our 10 that would be anywhere from a net of +11 to +14. So that would have put us at 8th or 9th.

 

[BCClone]

I think he would have scored 7.5 points before placement points were awarded. I always forget if it's 2 points for advancing champ side and 1 point conso advancement or if it's 1/0.5 for advancement. It would have been enough to move from 12th to 9th

Typically 1/.5, but have seen several different tourneys do different things. Pin is 2, then tfall is either 1.5/1.0 and a major is half a point less than a Tfall. Everything is getting so reliant on track that you just let it figure out the points at tourneys now. I have to double check each year now.

 

[theshadow]

Typically 1/.5, but have seen several different tourneys do different things. Pin is 2, then tfall is either 1.5/1.0 and a major is half a point less than a Tfall. Everything is getting so reliant on track that you just let it figure out the points at tourneys now. I have to double check each year now.

College has standard scoring rules for advancement, bonus, and placing points.

The variables are:
*number of places scored
*how the scoring lineup is determined
*how the bracket is set up (32+pigtails or 64 with byes, etc.)