Thomas should not have been starting over Morris

[acgclone]

Kane had 7 turnovers today. Monte has had zero the last 2 games as has Thomas.

That's great for MM, but comparing Kane and MT is not valid. MT rarely handles the ball and hasn't played much recently. He immediately looks to pass whereas Kane is expected to initiate most of our offense.

Overall he's been very careful with the ball.

 

[CycloneErik]

As little as MT handles the ball, his turnover stat isn't the best one for defense.
I also don't turn the ball over, and I'm one of the few Cyclones that sees the ball less than Thomas.
He's good when he has the ball, but it's not a very relevant stat.

 

[HFCS]

Re: I dont think it matters

i dont think it matters who starts- as long as we get quality minutes out of Morris or Long. Hoiberg can play the hot hand.

With Kanes injury CFH hand might be forced even if Kane can play. He might be healthy enough to start, but maybe not healthy enough to be the primary ball handler and on ball defender against KU's PG.

The reality is we didn't lose this game because of Thomas' play, but our giving OU open 3's and offensive rebounds. My bigger concern going forward (other than Kane's injury), is that neither Edozie or Gibson have shown Fred they can earn meaningful Big 12 minutes. I think a big body is needed when Niang goes out.

I'm not saying I know more than Fred, but I'd have been curious what would happen if we put in Edozie and just told him to spaz out defensively on their spaz player who was having lots of success playing spaz ball.

 

[twistedredbird]

OU outscores ISU 22-2 on second chance points. I dont think the problem is Thomas starting over Morris/Long.

 

[AdamJGray]

Matt Thomas has 13 assists and ZERO turnovers since the BYU game.

He is to hesitate with his shot currently and his confidence is obviously a bit low….BUT for a freshmen playing on a top 10 team, he's doing just fine. If you actually compare him to other 4 star freshmen across the country, I would venture to say he is having a better year than 80% of them. While playing on a better team.

I remember when these threads first started popping up for Babb. People thought that McGee should be starting over Babb two years ago. Hoiberg stuck with Babb. Looked like he knew what he was doing.

 

[acgclone]

OU outscores ISU 22-2 on second chance points. I dont think the problem is Thomas starting over Morris/Long.

No one is saying Thomas cost us this game. But can we win the league title with a 2-guard starter who gives you very little offensive production, considering he's not in there for his defensive ability?

Do we start slower and have to dig out of a hole because of him starting?

I think these are legit questions. No one here claims to know more than Fred, but it's worth discussing, IMO.

 

[AdamJGray]

OU outscores ISU 22-2 on second chance points. I dont think the problem is Thomas starting over Morris/Long.

Exactly.

I actually would have like to have seen Matt in during the end of the game to help rebound. Morris was getting pushed around when he was down low. Which is to be expected for a freshmen PG who needs to get a bit stronger.

 

[ISUFan22]

OU outscores ISU 22-2 on second chance points. I dont think the problem is Thomas starting over Morris/Long.

Matt Thomas has 13 assists and ZERO turnovers since the BYU game.

He is to hesitate with his shot currently and his confidence is obviously a bit low….BUT for a freshmen playing on a top 10 team, he's doing just fine. If you actually compare him to other 4 star freshmen across the country, I would venture to say he is having a better year than 80% of them. While playing on a better team.

I remember when these threads first started popping up for Babb. People thought that McGee should be starting over Babb two years ago. Hoiberg stuck with Babb. Looked like he knew what he was doing.

This and more of this.

 

[titleist]

I think the only reason Thomas starts is because he's impressive during practice. Based only on the games, I feel Naz is more deserving.

The argument about only being a freshman is useless. I don't care how old you are, I prefer to have the best 5 out there from tipoff.

 

[Dingus]

To some degree I have to believe starting Thomas is looking not only at the present but to the future as well. Guessing Hoiberg knows Thomas is a good enough shooter that he should be shooting 2/5 3pg and is just waiting for him to snap out of his funk.

Thomas is a great passer, good ball handler, decent rebounder, and makes about zero mistakes with the ball. But its tough to have a starter averaging 4ppg (over the past month) who plays average defense at best.

 

[Brad4Cyclones]

To some degree I have to believe starting Thomas is looking not only at the present but to the future as well. Guessing Hoiberg knows Thomas is a good enough shooter that he should be shooting 2/5 3pg and is just waiting for him to snap out of his funk.

Thomas is a great passer, good ball handler, decent rebounder, and makes about zero mistakes with the ball. But its tough to have a starter averaging 4ppg (over the past month) who plays average defense at best.

Doesn't seem that tough to me. We are 14-1 and ranked in the top 10.

 

[Tre4ISU]

I don't really care who starts but with the exception of a couple decent shooting performances, I have had a hard time seeing what MT is bringing right now.

 

[Brad4Cyclones]

I don't really care who starts but with the exception of a couple decent shooting performances, I have had a hard time seeing what MT is bringing right now.

Good passing, doesn't turn it over, and defends better than Naz Long. Naz Long is constantly lost on defense and gave up 3 straight 3's in the first half.

Most fans don't notice the small stuff that Thomas does that others don't. That's why he starts. Hoiberg sees it and fans don't. Just like fans who blame a QB when it's a lineman missing a block. The average fan doesn't have a clue.

 

[Bigman38]

It was easy to see why Babb started, he brought top notch D and still shot the ball even though he was struggling to find his stroke.

Nothing personal but he is the 7th best defender out of the 7 man rotation. Then you combine that with a shooter who won't shoot open shots in an offense based on spacing.

Minutes are more important than the starting line up but that doesn't make who starts unimportant. Other teams are gaining a lot of confidence with the way we've started games.

I've always assumed that there is some reason he starts, but I can't think of one and I've yet to see one brought up in this thread that makes sense.

 

[Brad4Cyclones]

Babb brought top notch D and still shot the ball, even though he was struggling to find his stroke.

Nothing personal but he is the 7th best defender out of the 7 man rotation. Then you combine that with a shooter who won't shoot open shots in an offense based on spacing.

Minutes are more important than the starting line up but that doesn't make who starts unimportant. Other teams are gaining a lot of confidence with the way we've started games.

I've always assumed that there is some reason he starts, but I can't think of one and I've yet to see one brought up in this thread that makes sense.

False. He's a better defender than Naz and most times Niang (who doesn't move his feet well at all). Naz gets lost on who to guard, when to switch, etc. Thomas knows where to be and has a good understanding of the defensive game plan.

Naz is shooting better than Thomas but it's not like Thomas is broke. He's 10th in the conference in shooting.

 

[Cyclonesince78]

Babb brought top notch D and still shot the ball, even though he was struggling to find his stroke.

Nothing personal but he is the 7th best defender out of the 7 man rotation. Then you combine that with a shooter who won't shoot open shots in an offense based on spacing.

Minutes are more important than the starting line up but that doesn't make who starts unimportant. Other teams are gaining a lot of confidence with the way we've started games.

I've always assumed that there is some reason he starts, but I can't think of one and I've yet to see one brought up in this thread that makes sense.

Agreed. The only reason that I can think of is future potential. Or who knows, maybe Hoiberg committed to starting him when he was recruited, and wants to keep his word. (Speculating of course)

 

[klamath632]

Exactly.

I actually would have like to have seen Matt in during the end of the game to help rebound. Morris was getting pushed around when he was down low. Which is to be expected for a freshmen PG who needs to get a bit stronger.

Interesting points but not really relevant to the discussion. We aren't comparing MT against other freshmen across the country, we're comparing him to Naz Long, the guy on his own team who comes off the bench and shows a lot more value than MT has shown in the games so far.

I'd be very interested in seeing the +/- stats of these two guys, does anyone know if a site anywhere keeps that stat?

Edit: Jeez, a quick google search and here it is. Matt Thomas nowhere to be found in the list.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/stats/plus_minus_avg?games=1&conf=big-12&season=2013-2014&min=

Big 12 Leaders - +/- Avg

Rank	Value	Player	Yr	Ht	Wt	Gms	Team
2	17.0	Monte Morris	Fr	6-2	170	15	Iowa State
4	15.0	DeAndre Kane	Sr	6-4	200	15	Iowa State
4	15.0	Naz Long	So	6-4	205	15	Iowa State
8	13.0	Georges Niang	So	6-7	240	15	Iowa State
9	12.4	Thomas Gipson	Jr	6-7	265	14	Kansas State
11	11.4	Shane Southwell	Sr	6-7	215	16	Kansas State
12	10.9	Will Spradling	Sr	6-2	185	16	Kansas State
14	9.7	Isaiah Taylor	Fr	6-1	170	15	Texas
14	9.7	Ryan Spangler	So	6-8	232	16	Oklahoma
16	9.6	Kenny Chery	Jr	5-11	180	15	Baylor
17	9.5	Joel Embiid	Fr	7-0	250	15	Kansas
17	9.5	Cory Jefferson	Sr	6-9	220	15	Baylor
20	9.2	Je`lon Hornbeak	So	6-4	184	12	Oklahoma
20	9.2	Andrew Wiggins	Fr	6-8	200	15	Kansas
22	9.0	Melvin Ejim	Sr	6-6	220	13	Iowa State

 

[titleist]

Good passing, doesn't turn it over, and defends better than Naz Long. Naz Long is constantly lost on defense and gave up 3 straight 3's in the first half.

Most fans don't notice the small stuff that Thomas does that others don't. That's why he starts. Hoiberg sees it and fans don't. Just like fans who blame a QB when it's a lineman missing a block. The average fan doesn't have a clue.

If this were really the case, why doesn't Thomas play the whole game? Fred gives him a chance each game, and he just isn't getting it done. I wish Thomas did but at this point Naz is the one showing more upside.

 

[Tre4ISU]

Good passing, doesn't turn it over, and defends better than Naz Long. Naz Long is constantly lost on defense and gave up 3 straight 3's in the first half.

Most fans don't notice the small stuff that Thomas does that others don't. That's why he starts. Hoiberg sees it and fans don't. Just like fans who blame a QB when it's a lineman missing a block. The average fan doesn't have a clue.

If we are going to go with MTs defense being the reason he starts, we are in trouble. Minutes are what reflect things and his minutes have been dropping so I get how it's all working but I don't get why he is playing less minutes, yet he's a starter. Naz is basically McGee I guess and I suppose Fred thinks he's better coming off the bench like McGee. Morris is definitely the most effective of the three though and that isn't really debatable.

 

[Brad4Cyclones]

If this were really the case, why doesn't Thomas play the whole game? Fred gives him a chance each game, and he just isn't getting it done. I wish Thomas did but at this point, Naz is the one showing more upside.

Thomas 25 MPG
Long 21 MPG

You are using a recent 2 game struggle.