To all the Prohm Haters...

[fsanford]

I'm taking a break from this board but since I assume most of this post was directed at me I'll take the time to respond. I don't hate Prohm and there are certainly some great things he's done here.

#1. I love what he's doing with high school recruiting. There is really nothing to work on here, he's pulling in highly touted recruits who are NBA talent. You need those type of guys to win conference championships and make deep NCAA runs.

#2. I love what he's doing with out defense. Last year was a down year, but in the other 3 years you can clearly see an emphasis on defense. Defense travels so I expect us to continue to compete well on the road.

#3. I think he's a good guy, he wants whats best for the program. I've been questioning his disciplinary tactics but its shown to get results and help build character with out players.

Now for the other part. The main reason I get so frustrated and vocal after losses like the other night are 2 main reasons:

#1 WE ARENT PROTECTING HILTON! I REPEAT, WE ARE NOT PROTECTING HILTON. This is honesty my main beef with him. The last four years we've let numerous teams we were better than come in and push us around in front of our home crowd. This is completely unacceptable. With Fred you knew there is no way a team is coming and winning unless they were clearly more talented or they got hot shooting. The only teams I remember losing to were Missouri and Kansas when they were Top 10 programs, and Baylor got us once because they shot out of their minds one night.

Now, mid tier teams are coming in and winning at an alarming rate. We would blow #1 teams like Kansas and Oklahoma out of the water, then turn right back around and lose to to West Virginia and Baylor. I wont even get into the disaster that last year turned into. The Milwaukee loss aside, which shouldnt happen to any coach here, we were completely blown out alot last year at home.

I've been to games the last 4 years and its just not the same atmosphere anymore. Something has changed and we need to find a way to get that back. If we ever want to dethrone Kansas its a must you protect your home court. Games where we gave away like on Saturday are completely unacceptable unless you are ok with going 11-7 ever year.

#2 His in game adjustments and is inability to adapt are extremely frustrating to watch. We've lost 3 games this year in the exact same manner and almost had a 4th last night. This has already been discussed in depth so I dont have much more to ad, but he needs to improve on his in-game coaching skills. He doesnt seem like he has ability to adapt to change unless his back is completely against the wall. An example of this is in 2016-17 when we were struggling with 4 guards. It took him until February 4th that year before he finally realized we were getting killed inside and adding even 1 competent post completely changed our season. Another example is the Wiggington thing right now, the guy should be starting.

#3 His transfer recruiting has been extremely average compared to the talent Hoiberg was bringing in now. Hoiberg brought in at least one player each year that was equivalent to a 5 star one and done guy. Prohm hasnt shown the ability to be able to do that. Shayok and Jacobson are by far his best transfers and they are up there with some of Hoibergs best, but overall he's had far more busts than serviceable Big 12 players. I think landing Shayok, Jacobson, and Nixon is a huge step in the right direction for him.

So in closing, start making Hilton an automatic loss for teams again, start working more on in-game adjustments and finishing games, and continue getting high quality transfers and Prohm should be here for a long time and expecting NCAA tourney teams every year.

I also apologize for being so negative on here, the last couple games were 4 years of frustrations boiling over. It was the complete epitome of everything that I think has gone wrong in the last 4 years, losing in Hilton, to a team we were clearly better than and who didnt even have their POY up to full speed, and the way we couldnt close out down the stretch was a little too much frustration for me.

'
4 years of frustration, seriously? I get last year, (and part of that was due to a horrible player imbalance set up by the previous guy) how many seniors did they have 5 or 6?
But Prohm dug out of it


Hilton is still a snake pit, but you need to come with terms that teams will lose at home sometimes. Duke lost at home, UNC got blown out at home, it happens.
Prohm has been fine sans what was a rebuild from last year. Road wins historically are bigger when it comes to seeds in the NCAA tourney.

His in game adjustments and his inability to adapt. There are times you question it but this has grown into an urban legend, top 20 in offensive and top 25 in defensive efficiency sure points to adjustments and good coaching All coaches need to work on their skill no doubt but overall these guys are well coached.

Guys are getting a lot of open looks, and if they miss at least we know they have the ability to stop teams at the other end. Pretty sure that block was huge towards the end of the game last night.

His recruiting you contradict yourself here you say high school recruiting is great but his transfer program sucks. Ever stop to think that Fred needed to do the transfer thing because his last couple of years of high school recruiting were nothing but swings and misses.

ISU should bring in no more than 1 or 2 transfers per year

You cannot bring 3 high school kids a year and then bring in 3 transfers too,
You will end up like ISU did year before last with 6 guys leaving the program at once turning over nearly half a team in 1 season is never a good thing.


You are a passionate fella, and I don't question your ISU support, but it is concerning that you cannot enjoy at least 2.5 of the last 3.5 years, because its been great really

 

[EJ4CY]

Well...duh.

Every single college basketball team plays better when they can control their own tempo; whether that means a slower half-court set type of offense or more of a "run and gun" fast break kind of style. The best defensive teams (like Texas Tech) are the kind of teams that force you to play the kind of tempo they want you to play. The good teams (like we were last night) can make adjustments as needed and still pull off the victory, even while playing out of their "comfort zone". For all the talk last night about how we beat the season average of points allowed by Tech they also held us to well below our season average. Didn't matter in the end; we still got the W.

See? This is the kind of total crap that just pisses me off to no end; this "cherry picking" of certain elements of the game to keep on driving home an agenda. "Our offense slowed down in the end against a really good defensive team...so that means Prohm's a bad coach" or "We had a couple of turnovers on the out of bounds plays, so Prohm can't coach". It's completely unfair and asinine and frankly is chock full of "Derp".

First, I'm not passing an agenda, nor have you every see me pushing an agenda, just voicing an opinion, which I believe I am entitled to. My reference above was that you can run and play with tempo with talent (especially with the talent we have.) His measuring stick will be in the half court sets and getting the team to be productive. His ability or inability to improve this team in this area will speak for itself. And outside of his first year in which he self admitted "I didn't coach that team, they coached themselves" he has not shown to date that he can. That doesn't mean he won't be able to, just the area in which this team has a deficiency that will need to improve if we want to compete.

 

[Cat Stevens]

Everybody has to be the “I told you so guy”.

I don’t understand why people can’t be critical of coaches on here (a minority of people) and their comeback is “we won, didn’t we?!”. There’s so many things/plays in a game that makes that argument really lazy.

The Babb bucket at 61-61 had people standing around with little movement with him hitting a jumper. Awesome it went in, but in another game that goes the other way and people complain why a better play wasn’t drawn up or why were we settling for an iso play in the biggest moment of the game. It’s been a criticism of Prohm that they take the air out and drain the clock out in those situations. It happened but it went in so who cares I guess.

Criticism like the above is seen as somebody taking personal shots at coaches. Criticizing the coach for a play call is not the same as saying I want him fired or that he’s a ****** human being. It’s dangerous when it gets portrayed as that by some people.

Cascade here’s another example of a straw man you were looking for

 

[Cat Stevens]

First, I'm not passing an agenda, nor have you every see me pushing an agenda, just voicing an opinion, which I believe I am entitled to. My reference above was that you can run and play with tempo with talent (especially with the talent we have.) His measuring stick will be in the half court sets and getting the team to be productive. His ability or inability to improve this team in this area will speak for itself. And outside of his first year in which he self admitted "I didn't coach that team, they coached themselves" he has not shown to date that he can. That doesn't mean he won't be able to, just the area in which this team has a deficiency that will need to improve if we want to compete.

You really don’t think he coached that team his first year?

Because if you don’t, then your first statement is a lie

 

[Cy$]

Cascade here’s another example of a straw man you were looking for

Somebody disagrees with me. I better start getting defensive because I don’t have a comeback.

~Cat Stevens

 

[cycjob]

Not liking some of his tendencies does not make one a Prohm hater. Last season he had good reason to only be playing 7 players. This season he has more talent. We need to see Prohm getting guys minutes to keep them committed and to develop them for the future. I have no idea why Talley is in the dog house, but he contributed last year and got better the more he played. Surely he could help the team this year.

 

[Sigmapolis]

'
4 years of frustration, seriously? I get last year, (and part of that was due to a horrible player imbalance set up by the previous guy) how many seniors did they have 5 or 6?
But Prohm dug out of it


Hilton is still a snake pit, but you need to come with terms that teams will lose at home sometimes. Duke lost at home, UNC got blown out at home, it happens.
Prohm has been fine sans what was a rebuild from last year. Road wins historically are bigger when it comes to seeds in the NCAA tourney.

His in game adjustments and his inability to adapt. There are times you question it but this has grown into an urban legend, top 20 in offensive and top 25 in defensive efficiency sure points to adjustments and good coaching All coaches need to work on their skill no doubt but overall these guys are well coached.

Guys are getting a lot of open looks, and if they miss at least we know they have the ability to stop teams at the other end. Pretty sure that block was huge towards the end of the game last night.

His recruiting you contradict yourself here you say high school recruiting is great but his transfer program sucks. Ever stop to think that Fred needed to do the transfer thing because his last couple of years of high school recruiting were nothing but swings and misses.

ISU should bring in no more than 1 or 2 transfers per year

You cannot bring 3 high school kids a year and then bring in 3 transfers too,
You will end up like ISU did year before last with 6 guys leaving the program at once turning over nearly half a team in 1 season is never a good thing.


You are a passionate fella, and I don't question your ISU support, but it is concerning that you cannot enjoy at least 2.5 of the last 3.5 years, because its been great really

I am going to put a note in here, too --

I actually enjoyed last year. Greatly.

We had some big wins at home.
When that team was firing, it was actually very competitive.
Literally everything that could have gone wrong with injuries went wrong.
The team seemed to bond in sympathy for Donovan's grief.
Lindell and Cameron looked like they would be monsters as they developed.
We knew we had lots of help coming off red-shirts and from the four freshmen.
We went on a nice winning streak before Big 12 play.
We did not win much, but it felt like there was a foundation for a program being built.

I had low expectations, and we met them.

Somebody disagrees with me. I better start getting defensive because I don’t have a comeback.

~Cat Stevens

A shame that I have to associate the real Cat Stevens, one of my favorite musicians and the creator of Tea for the Tillerman, one of my favorite albums of all-time, with Mr. Ad Hominem himself. We should all climb aboard the peace train together...

"Now I've been happy lately / Thinking about the good things to come."

I just take comfort in this -- @Cat Stevens and its ilk do not have arguments, they have indictments. Their whole point is to degenerate what might be a useful, interesting conversation into mudslinging. They do this because they are too stupid to do more.

Such tactics are, at least, impolite if not immoral or functionally illiterate.

 

[Cy$]

A shame that I have to associate the real Cat Stevens, one of my favorite musicians and the creator of Tea for the Tillerman, one of my favorite albums of all-time, with Mr. Ad Hominem himself. We should all climb aboard the peace train together...

"Now I've been happy lately / Thinking about the good things to come."

I just take comfort in this -- @Cat Stevens and its ilk do not have arguments, they have indictments. Their whole point is to degenerate what might be a useful, interesting conversation into mudslinging. They do this because they are too stupid to do more.

Such tactics are, at least, impolite if not immoral or functionally illiterate.

I don’t mind getting into debates on here about basketball if the other side actually tries to provide facts and tries to participate.

When somebody’s strategy is to attack someone to intimidate (or silence) the other, that’s when I know they aren’t worth the time. It’s a scummy move.

 

[Sigmapolis]

I don’t mind getting into debates on here about basketball if the other side actually tries to provide facts and tries to participate.

When somebody’s strategy is to attack someone to intimidate (or silence) the other, that’s when I know they aren’t worth the time. It’s a scummy move.

Being an ******* is easier and more generally applicable than knowing what you're talking about. The first requires bluster, the second requires a lot of work.

It unfortunately works pretty well on most audiences, too, that either (1.) resent somebody who actually knows what they are talking about because it makes them feel stupid in turn, too, so the ******* is a form of wish fulfillment to them; (2.) enjoy the personalized drama more than any high-minded, dry discussions about KenPom ratings or EFG% or even more qualitative notes about in-game strategies and players' personalities; or (3.) they sense, unless they go along with the *******, they are going to be the target of the vitriol next, and that is scary.

I think the sports boards on here are eminently well-informed and civilized. Even the in-state rivals discussions tend to marshal evidence and stay focused.

The Steve v. Fred flame and counter-flame wars are getting a little like debating the War of the Spanish Succession, though. We need to move on already.

The politics board is in the midst of a half-decade meltdown at this point, though.

 

[Cat Stevens]

Somebody disagrees with me. I better start getting defensive because I don’t have a comeback.

~Cat Stevens

No you are the one that wanted to try to pretend you were somehow victimized by having to eat a tough win. The reality is no one is saying prohm is perfect. That’s a straw man you created.

Since Cascade asked earlier about straw men, this was a pretty good example.

Also jbh had a wonderful post earlier about the irrationality of the anti prohm sect here.

 

[Cat Stevens]

I don’t mind getting into debates on here about basketball if the other side actually tries to provide facts and tries to participate.

When somebody’s strategy is to attack someone to intimidate (or silence) the other, that’s when I know they aren’t worth the time. It’s a scummy move.

Or, you know, actually support the team and see how the season ends before flying off the handle.

This has been the case with this coach in particular.

 

[ISUChippewa]

1.) When criticizing Prohm, posters on here no longer reference Hoiberg and wish he was here, other than a few troll posts/threads.

2.) The only people that bring him up are the people who are insecure in their belief of the man. If you are a devout Prohm fan, form a valid, thoughtful argument as to why a poster is wrong in his critique of the man.

3.) Criticism does not automatically equate to hate of coach and it doesn't make you any less of a cyclone fan. Rooting for the failure of the team to see Coach Prohm fail does make you less of a cyclone fan.

4.) OP screams of little man syndrome.

1) You did not spend any time on this board after Saturday's loss. That is exactly what happened. Get yourself a frame of reference first (to quote Walter Sobchak in "The Big Lebowski") before spouting off.

2) What's your definition of "devout"? Obviously I'm a defender of him (as I frankly am of most coaches, at least from the armchair quarterback mentality that exists on these type of websites). I have written in this very thread that he is not immune from receiving criticism; I do think it's unfair for posters to keep on harping about out of bounds plays following a road victory over a Top 10 team to try to make the point that he's a bad coach. If that makes me "devout", so be it.

3) See #1.

4) Take a personal shot at me, I'll shoot back; we've never met, and you don't know a damn thing about me. GFY, and blow it out your a$$.

 

[Cy$]

Or, you know, actually support the team and see how the season ends before flying off the handle.

This has been the case with this coach in particular.

Any examples of me flying off the handle?

If you think disagreeing about an iso play in a late tied game is “flying off the handle” then that’s sad. You won’t post my post about wigginton after the game because that wouldn’t fit your narrative.
I also don’t think you read my whole post. You read the first paragraph, jumped to conclusions I hate Prohm (again, find something recently where I said that) then decided to go after me.

 

[NoCreativity]

ISUChippewa

Complete hothead, you can tell this guy has some anger issues by his constant getting around the language filters.

Are we going to see threads like this for the rest of the year every time we win a game?

I mean, I get frustrated and sometimes lose my cool on the rare occasion Im posting in a game thread, but I dont feel the need to start entire posts after every loss.

 

[SCarolinaCy]

End of the game could have been cleaner, but glad these guys bounced back the way they did after two hard losses. Not something we always saw in the past.

I saw some of the same critical mistakes in the last two minutes here as against KSU. Missed layup. Missed blockout on the free throw. Allowing man to man blow by for layup. Making a one and one free throw maybe the difference.

 

[Cy$]

The reality is no one is saying prohm is perfect.

Then why are you trying to start **** with me for pointing out a flaw in Prohm then? Like I said, you jump to conclusions that everyone wants Prohm fired when saying anything negative.

Maybe I think Prohm shouldn’t be fired but has deficiencies?

Don’t say you arent criticizing people who talk bad about Prohm. I’ve read your posts about people criticizing Prohm in this thread and others. It’s fine to stand up for coaches, but starting **** when it doesn’t fit what you want to hear is getting old.

I’m not replying to you so the thread gets back on topic. I like hearing opinions from people on all sides.

 

[Cy$]

Being an ******* is easier and more generally applicable than knowing what you're talking about. The first requires bluster, the second requires a lot of work.

It unfortunately works pretty well on most audiences, too, that either (1.) resent somebody who actually knows what they are talking about because it makes them feel stupid in turn, too, so the ******* is a form of wish fulfillment to them; (2.) enjoy the personalized drama more than any high-minded, dry discussions about KenPom ratings or EFG% or even more qualitative notes about in-game strategies and players' personalities; or (3.) they sense, unless they go along with the *******, they are going to be the target of the vitriol next, and that is scary.

I think the sports boards on here are eminently well-informed and civilized. Even the in-state rivals discussions tend to marshal evidence and stay focused.

The Steve v. Fred flame and counter-flame wars are getting a little like debating the War of the Spanish Succession, though. We need to move on already.

The politics board is in the midst of a half-decade meltdown at this point, though.

You should post Kenpom ratings to get this thread somewhat back on topic.

 

[ISUChippewa]

Not liking some of his tendencies does not make one a Prohm hater. Last season he had good reason to only be playing 7 players. This season he has more talent. We need to see Prohm getting guys minutes to keep them committed and to develop them for the future. I have no idea why Talley is in the dog house, but he contributed last year and got better the more he played. Surely he could help the team this year.

Honest question here, but who would you play Talley over in the current rotation? Do you think he would have made the difference against KSU? We did just fine without him last night.

I don't think he's in the "doghouse" so much this season as much as it's just a case of having a much more talented roster this season. Last year he had his moments where he really shined, but that was also in large part due to an injury depleted roster. I hope he brings in some good minutes for us this season, but he is a senior. Keeping him "happy" is pretty far down on the list of my concerns.

 

[ISUChippewa]

ISUChippewa

Complete hothead, you can tell this guy has some anger issues by his constant getting around the language filters.

Are we going to see threads like this for the rest of the year every time we win a game?

I mean, I get frustrated and sometimes lose my cool on the rare occasion Im posting in a game thread, but I dont feel the need to start entire posts after every loss.

Oh FFS...

Are you honestly bent out of shape because I returned fire on a guy who insulted me?

 

[Cat Stevens]

Any examples of me flying off the handle?

If you think disagreeing about an iso play in a late tied game is “flying off the handle” then that’s sad. You won’t post my post about wigginton after the game because that wouldn’t fit your narrative.
I also don’t think you read my whole post. You read the first paragraph, jumped to conclusions I want Prohm fired (again, find something recently where I said that) then decided to go after me.

Recently? So you have said it before?


It’s a pretty consistent pattern here. Basketball is a game of ebbs and flows. Especially when playing good to great teams.

The reality is that it’s way beyond just x’s and o’s With this coach for some reason. But you immediately jump to every criticism is somehow the same.

It isn’t. And you know this. But you still threw a huge ol man made of straw out there