MONDAY MUSINGS: Hoops thoughts, football coaching changes, don't be a jackass

Sigmapolis

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So, you think he handled Wigginton's minutes appropriately?

I do not see a case he egregiously mismanaged them, which some of the ranting on here implies about Wigginton's minutes last year as compared to, say, THT.

I address the issue in more detail here. Nobody has tried to refute it --

https://cyclonefanatic.com/forum/threads/this-is-why-prohm-must-go.247105/page-55#post-6945940

This adds to that --

https://cyclonefanatic.com/forum/threads/this-is-why-prohm-must-go.247105/page-56#post-6945973

As I said in one of those posts, I probably would have started Wigginton at some point, but I do not find him utterly indefensible as a sixth-man bench shooter.

Horton-Tucker was the type where he was either making every hunk of junk he threw up or he was shooting you out of games. Maybe figuring out if "good Talen" or "bad Talen" was there that night early was worth something to Prohm.

I also wonder if Prohm had promised Talen a starting sport during the recruiting process and, in order to stay on the good side of a potential pipeline at Simeon and in the Chicago area, he had to honor that through to the end of the season.

There are many legitimate criticisms one can make of Steve Prohm. He has not helped his own case very much the past few weeks, obviously.

But the "boo hoo he did Wigginton so wrong" one is not one of them.
 
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GTO

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@ChrisMWilliams - disappointed by the lack of coverage of the Terrence Lewis situation. Can you shine some light into what may be going on there? Do you believe Grill, Griffin, and Jackson all contribute more offensively (or are substantially better defenders) than Terrence Lewis?
 
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aeroclone

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Even after last season when he won the Big 12 Tournament Championship and got us a 6 seed?

I don't see last year as a ringing endorsement of the job he is doing. That was a team that was in a position to win the conference a week into February. From there they lost 6 of their last 8. Yes, they rallied to make a run in the B12 tourney, but then back to the slide losing to the 11 seed in the first round. Earlier in the season we nearly gave up 100 to iowa. All of that with what will likely be 4 players on that roster who will cash an NBA paycheck.

That team showed he could pull some recruits in, but it certainly didn't show that he could get the most out of them once they are here.
 

CyTwins

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I don't see last year as a ringing endorsement of the job he is doing. That was a team that was in a position to win the conference a week into February. From there they lost 6 of their last 8. Yes, they rallied to make a run in the B12 tourney, but then back to the slide losing to the 11 seed in the first round. Earlier in the season we nearly gave up 100 to iowa. All of that with what will likely be 4 players on that roster who will cash an NBA paycheck.

That team showed he could pull some recruits in, but it certainly didn't show that he could get the most out of them once they are here.

I just think it's a weird argument is all. If you think a coach did a poor job getting a 6 seed in the tourney I'm not sure what to tell ya
 
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Cyched

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I do not see a case he egregiously mismanaged them, which some of the ranting on here implies about Wigginton's minutes last year as compared to, say, THT.

I address the issue in more detail here. Nobody has tried to refute it --

https://cyclonefanatic.com/forum/threads/this-is-why-prohm-must-go.247105/page-55#post-6945940

This adds to that --

https://cyclonefanatic.com/forum/threads/this-is-why-prohm-must-go.247105/page-56#post-6945973

As I said in one of those posts, I probably would have started Wigginton at some point, but I do not find it utterly indefensible as a six-man bench shooter.

Horton-Tucker was the type where he was either making every hunk of junk he threw up or he was shooting you out of games. Maybe figuring out if "good Talen" or "bad Talen" was there that night early as worth something to Prohm.

I also wonder if Prohm had promised Talen a starting sport during the recruiting process and, in order to stay on the good side of a potential pipeline at Simeon and in the Chicago area, he had to honor that through to the end of the season.

There are many legitimate criticisms one can make of Steve Prohm. He has not helped his own case very much the past few weeks, obviously.

But the "boo hoo he did Wigginton so wrong" one is not one of them.

Fwiw, I think Tyrese’s emergence had something to do with it as well once he was covering for the injured Lindell. I think most people thought there would be some developmental time, but he very quickly turned into a guy SP couldn’t keep off the floor.
 

CoachHines3

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um...you may need to rewind and look at a few things...I'm fairly sure all of that was said.

ah

so youre one of those guys that says nothing when things are going well but boy when they go bad youre the first one to criticize!

going through your posting, none of those things were being said when we were winning the big 12 tournament. In fact, you were pretty quiet from after the WVU game to after the season.
 
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woodm07

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I agree with the call to grow up and not be a JA. Very comparable to politics.

As others, I feel the fear is real that this year and next have the potential and perhaps even likelihood of landing in the bottom third of the big 12 with no tournament visit. By this time next year, we'll also have a good look at recruiting to get a feeling of the following year. Bottom line, fear of nothing changing.

I do feel last year was a good year. I know some say we underachieved, but to me, a good year. A tournament bid or big12 tournament championship would completely change my opinion of this year or next.

It does feel like we simply are no longer in the a top third big 12 program. I think there was hope last year we were close.
 

Kurttr

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So, you think he handled Wigginton's minutes appropriately?
I don't know why I'm even bothering to post, as the "fire him now" crowd has had their minds made up since Fred left. The crappy results this past few weeks have made it so that I just mostly ignore the CF forums and the constant negativity that it has become... CW, thanks for your excellent article.

For those who believe themselves to be rational and not "fire him b/c he's not Fred", and, I believe there are some in this category:
- It appears highly unlikely that this team will make the NCAAs; the only way I possibly see that happening is if Tre Jackson can start hitting multiple threes a game, like he did in HS (where he lit it up); I say this, as he plays tough D and is the only wing/guard off the bench that I see being able to effectively play both ways (I'd love it if either Zion or TL prove to be this person, as well; Grill looks like he just needs a year to get accustomed); even that makes us a short line-up, which is tough;
- But, I don't get why acknowledging that we're likely to struggle the rest of the year is reason to call for the coach's firing, be constantly negative, etc. Few coaches/programs have the success or linear path that some seem to think is an obvious given for ISU;
- Comments about how the trend of the program is in the tank are just insane; step back, look at our program pre-Fred, post-Fred (CSP), and forward; I bet you were screaming "the sky is falling" multiple seasons in the post-Fred (CSP) years; struggling this year does not mean we can't pick it back up in future years (or, possibly even this year);
- To question the passion/effort of the coach and especially the team is ridiculous if you're a fan - and, that appears to be what a few are doing with their negativity;
- Looking at this season, it seems to me that we're trying to play the four-out ball that CSP prefers to play, but without the right pieces; I'm interested to see if/how he adjusts as the year goes on (as he did at TCU with Tre playing much of the game); three of our top eight players are posts, and none of them can play the wing - it's just not doable even for Jacobson; I'd like to see that experiment ended and mix in some high/low post when two of them are in and some more structured O when we're in any line-up, as this team doesn't seem to have the creators that CSP's O needs to have - Tyrese is still cutting his teeth in that manner as well and often scores better in the halfcourt when off the ball - I loved the called play for his three late in the game to put us up by three... what a rough ending...
- Sorry, long note, but I don't get how some flip from seeing things they'd like to change to calling for a firing during an obvious downward trend...
 

rochclone

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There wasn't last time (although the fact that our previous coach screwed us over and left in June was a big reason why).
There were big names available last time. Altman was interested but JP wasn’t paying 3 million + a year. Dude can absolutely recruit and coach.
 

Gossamer

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ah

so youre one of those guys that says nothing when things are going well but boy when they go bad youre the first one to criticize!

going through your posting, none of those things were being said when we were winning the big 12 tournament. In fact, you were pretty quiet from after the WVU game to after the season.

were you talking directly to me with your first post or were you meaning all of CF? Because I'm sure if I spend the time to find some, I can find other posts regarding Prohm similar to what you say doesn't exist.

I don't recall all that i've posted regarding CP. I believe I've probably alluded to the notion he's a good guy but not the strongest in-game coach. And since many feel like we've been good during his short tenure (i'm assuming you're one of them), that kinds of kills your argument, does it not?

finally, are you stating things have gone bad?
 

rochclone

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Woo Pig Sooie. Another reason Pollard wouldn't hire him lol
Multiple reasons why JP didn’t want him but for an extra million a year I think we would see the grad transfer pipeline still in full force and effect.
 

aeroclone

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I just think it's a weird argument is all. If you think a coach did a poor job getting a 6 seed in the tourney I'm not sure what to tell ya

In general, a season at ISU ending in a 6 seed is a success. The results last year were good based on our history. But in hindsight, given what we had on that team and seeing what the rest of the league had, I feel like we underperformed. When evaluating a coaching job I would look in hindsight at how the team performed relative to what they were woking with. Did they over perform, play at the level their talent and experience would dictate, or underperform.

If KU finishes 5th in the league this year and gets a 6 seed nobody is going to be claiming that Self did one of his better coaching jobs, because that would be a team that under delivered looking at the pieces they have compared to the competition this season.
 
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Sigmapolis

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Fwiw, I think Tyrese’s emergence had something to do with it as well once he was covering for the injured Lindell. I think most people thought there would be some developmental time, but he very quickly turned into a guy SP couldn’t keep off the floor.

This is why I compare Wigginton to THT for that last starting spot.

NWB and Shayok were fifth-years seniors, and Shayok was one of the best handful of players in the conference. Haliburton was too good to keep off the court and complemented all the other high-usage guys perfectly. So that leaves you with either Wigginton or Horton-Tucker for the last spot, and the numbers between the two are ambiguous. Neither makes an unassailable case over the other towards who should be starting.

I find poor "mismanaged" Lindell Wigginton being the hill people want to die on is strange. There are so many better arguments against Prohm if you want them.

Why is *that* one the one of interest?
 
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CyTwins

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In general, a season at ISU ending in a 6 seed is a success. The results last year were good based on our history. But in hindsight, given what we had on that team and seeing what the rest of the league had, I feel like we underperformed. When evaluating a coaching job I would look in hindsight at how the team performed relative to what they were woking with. Did they over perform, play at the level their talent and experience would dictate, or underperform.

If KU finishes 5th in the league this year and gets a 6 seed nobody is going to be claiming that Self did one of his better coaching jobs, because that would be a team that under delivered looking at the pieces they have compared to the competition this season.

I mean I don't remember Fred getting criticized for getting a team with Royce, Scottie, Chris Allen, Ejim, Babb and Tyrus an 8 seed. Lol cmon
 

jsb

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This is why I compare Wigginton to THT for that last starting spot.

NWB and Shayok were fifth-years seniors, and Shayok was one of the best handful of players in the conference. Haliburton was too good to keep off the court and complemented all the other high-usage guys perfectly. So that leaves you with either Wigginton or Horton-Tucker for the last spot, and the numbers between the two are ambiguous. Neither makes an unassailable case over the other towards who should be starting.

I find poor "mismanaged" Lindell Wigginton being the hill people want to die on is strange. There are so many better arguments against Prohm if you want them.

Why is *that* one the one of interest?

because it’s an easy one to make if you aren’t capable of critical thinking.
 

CoachHines3

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were you talking directly to me with your first post or were you meaning all of CF? Because I'm sure if I spend the time to find some, I can find other posts regarding Prohm similar to what you say doesn't exist.

I don't recall all that i've posted regarding CP. I believe I've probably alluded to the notion he's a good guy but not the strongest in-game coach. And since many feel like we've been good during his short tenure (i'm assuming you're one of them), that kinds of kills your argument, does it not?

finally, are you stating things have gone bad?

i agree that this season isn't off to the start many have thought it would be. Although we were picked to finish 7th for a reason.

im sure there are many posts out there about prohm, yes. Im alluding to the fact that most people who are complaining about him now, weren't complaining about him the week of March 11.
 
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Stewo

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Listen. Many of us feel that Prohm just isn't that great of a coach. Some of you are grabbing at a few different things that he's done well and using that as your metric. Fine. I'm not changing my mind that Prohm isn't a very good X's and O's guy, though. I doubt any of us will.

I am curious though, how many of you that still think Prohm's a good coach will change your tune when we finish in the bottom two in the conference again?
 
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