MONDAY MUSINGS: Hoops thoughts, football coaching changes, don't be a jackass

[Billups06]

Forte missing that FT to give us that shot was_____?

Easy: Hilton Magic

 

[alarson]

The bold statements above are your problem.

You admit that a reasonable person could have it either way.

A person can reasonably disagree and say that Lindell Wigginton should have started once he got his sea legs back under him last season, but that was not the point made at the beginning of this conversation. That is one I agree with, actually -- LW should have started over Talen last year at some point, though I wonder if Talen was guaranteed a spot behind the scenes during his recruiting process, a promise that ultimately brought him to Ames. That was not the counterpoint, however, looking back.

The counterpoint was that Wigginton was "mismanaged" last season.

What you are saying (e.g., there are pros and cons to either decision, but you are implying the net impact of it either way was probably pretty limited compared to the other issues with the coaching and the roster) is reasonable.

You have either ignored or backed down greatly from the point.

Prohm had two options, A and B, and both were pretty similar. Going with A does not mean he mismanaged B. You would have to prove that B was (1.) substantially better than A in basically all circumstances and (2.) B got really screwed, which is a hard case to make when B was playing more minutes than two of the starters.

No, what i'm saying is that people could have strongly held beliefs on it either way and it isnt an unreasonable thing for someone to believe. You happen to think they were both pretty similar. Others might not. It doesnt make it unreasonable for someone to make the argument.

 

[VeloClone]

what about this one?

I was thinking about that one. I would call that one luck as well. Also the Ben McLemore shot to send the ISU game in Lawrence into OT was luck. If you are banking in desperation 3s it is luck.

 

[ArgentCy]

what about this one?

Luck. Long bank shots are clearly unintentional and therefore attributable to luck.

 

[Sigmapolis]

No, what i'm saying is that people could have strongly held beliefs on it either way and it isnt an unreasonable thing for someone to believe. You happen to think they were both pretty similar. Others might not. It doesnt make it unreasonable for someone to make the argument.

Your post is strongly lacking in one very important concept -- evidence.

Emoting harder than the other guy does not make you right.

You can "feel" Wigginton got the shaft all you want, but unless you have some evidence he was better than the other options (which is lacking, check out the guy's ATR for what was supposed to be a 5* PG recruit, it is almost hilarious how bad it is) or even that he did not play enough (and he played more minutes than the likely guy he would have replaced in the starting lineup), then you really do not have much of an argument.

Yet this is held up as a primary argument of the "Prohm sucks" crowd.

This is something where you should not have "beliefs" -- you should have hypotheses and theories tested against the available evidence that we have.

 

[Cyched]

He figured since your wife was dancing you'd already be there? Sorry - couldn't engage my filter fast enough to NOT post that.

She does have a “favorite customer” that allowed her to buy me some sweet Christmas gifts this year. Thx @CyclonesMoney

 

[rochclone]

Context is important and I think the points are:
a) Prohm has proven that he can recruit at the HS, JC, and transfer levels
b) Prohm should get a lot of credit for the successes of 2016 and 2017 with flawed rosters, personnel management, etc.
c) Winning is winning and Prohm was 101-29 with his "own players" while at Murray St.
d) Everyone knows why the single year of 2018 is a flawed year to use as an indictment against an entire resume.
d) Prohm is not perfect.
e) Expectations should be realistic.

What are realistic expectations? Mine is the NCAA tournament 75-80% of the time. If we become a team that goes every other year for the next 10 I would suspect CSP and JP would consider that falling short of expectations.

My expectation is not a Big 12 title every few years. But winning one every decade should be a goal. Getting to the tournament 8 times in a decade should be the goal. Having 2 Sweet 16 appearances in a decade should be a goal. That is what Top 25-35 programs do and I sincerely believe Iowa State is and should be that type of program. I’m honestly curious.

 

[BillBrasky4Cy]

I was thinking about that one. I would call that one luck as well. Also the Ben McLemore shot to send the ISU game in Lawrence into OT was luck. If you are banking in desperation 3s it is luck.

LOL No, that was a typical night in the Phog. Seriously, that building has some of the weirdest sh** happen inside of it and it pretty and 99 times out of 100 it's in favor of the Jayhawks.

 

[ArgentCy]

Oops, too late on that last thing. Having a conversation that isn't all sunshine apparently is not acceptable anymore. Oh well.

 

[VeloClone]

LOL No, that was a typical night in the Phog. Seriously, that building has some of the weirdest sh** happen inside of it and it pretty and 99 times out of 100 it's in favor of the Jayhawks.

Come on now. Now you are just throwing **** out there. I suppose next you are going to tell me that refs in the Phog would allow Kansas to shoot a three pointer in between the two shots of a two shot free throw opportunity.

 

[simply1]

My optimism is based on TH and people around him developing some sort of cohesiveness. If we can find a way to stay close, TH is working on being the dude to ice these games. There’s no guarantee any of this happens, but we’re playing this year out either was so I hope he gets some game winners.

 

[rochclone]

what about this one?

Lucky.

 

[rochclone]

Forte missing that FT to give us that shot was_____?

What is “Unexpected” Alex?

 

[SpokaneCY]

I'm all for no jack***-ery. There's a very distinct difference between a merit/fact based analysis of the kind of job Prohm has done as opposed to being a ****. As I mentioned in another thread, I think at the point you go from having a discussion to an argument it's time to move on.

I will say, however, that there appears to be a contingent who feel Prohm is above any criticism. The man is paid over 2 million dollars a year. I think we can all probably appreciate there are arguments for and against his performance thus far as a coach. I'm all for not being a ****, but at the same time I think it's ridiculous to see some act as though he is above reproach.

I'm a sunshine pumper and will support all our coaches - but I've yet to see ANYONE post anything that says he is beyond reproach. Guys like me see the track record, the tourney stuff, the knocking off highly ranked teams more than anyone else, the development under CSP both in a season (there are outliers) and with guys making the leap to the league. He has character guys that represent this university well. His recruiting is generally solid but having THT bail early, Lard not getting it, Wiggs leaving money on the table by leaving early... I do think we're having trouble with roster turn-over but if he had just 1 shooter from last year (THT or Wiggs) we're in the picture.

It's those reasons that make me want to give him time to get these guys working and incorporate next year's class into the program.

 

[CycloneErik]

You are missing my point. I'm saying the measure of success for a coach is fluid. The bar is not the same at KU as ISU, true. But it is also not the same at KU between seasons or at ISU between seasons. Evaluating whether a coach did well in a season is a moving standard based on the school, the roster, the rest of the league, etc.

Twins is making the case that last year was a success simply because we had a 6 seed. I would say it was indeed a good end result by historical ISU standards, but it was underachieving based on how the year played out. We had better talent relative to the league than 9-9 for 5th place. We had better talent than to have several losses at Hilton. That team had better talent than 1 and done in the NCAA. The B12 tourney win was great, but in my opinion bigger picture last year Prohm underdelivered given what he had and what he was up against.

Twins is just trolling. It's his shtick.

 

[rochclone]

Your post is strongly lacking in one very important concept -- evidence.

Emoting harder than the other guy does not make you right.

You can "feel" Wigginton got the shaft all you want, but unless you have some evidence he was better than the other options (which is lacking, check out the guy's ATR for what was supposed to be a 5* PG recruit, it is almost hilarious how bad it is) or even that he did not play enough (and he played more minutes than the likely guy he would have replaced in the starting lineup), then you really do not have much of an argument.

Yet this is held up as a primary argument of the "Prohm sucks" crowd.

This is something where you should not have "beliefs" -- you should have hypotheses and theories tested against the available evidence that we have.

Wiggington wasn’t mismanaged. He didn’t play defense to 30% of his god-given ability. Maybe Prohm could/should have played him more exclusively off the ball but the dude was bad at times on offense and non existent most of the times on keeping a guy in front of him.

 

[Stewo]

The 2017-2018 season should in no shape or form be used against Prohm. He walked into a roster that was a scholarship disaster. I get that people are frustrated with how this year is going and it's fair but damn, stop putting so much weight into the 2017-2018 season.

I don't agree that the 2017-18 season shouldn't be on on Prohm. That season started more than two years after he and his staff stepped on campus (third season).

There can always be excuses as to why a coach fails. Hell, we can even empathize with them (see GMac), but winning is what matters. Above (almost) all else. The excuses for this year's failures have already started and while it's normal, it doesn't help win games.

 

[SpokaneCY]

He has been at Oregon for 10 years and before that he was at Creighton for 14 years. Not exactly a job hopper.

Crap - I smell toast and it's burnt. I have to be careful who's bottom I grab these "facts" from!

 

[SpokaneCY]

She does have a “favorite customer” that allowed her to buy me some sweet Christmas gifts this year. Thx @CyclonesMoney

A guys GOTTA know where his bread is buttered!

 

[Cyched]

A guys GOTTA know where his bread is buttered!

So there was some symbolism to the butter churn she got me..