Housing market

Beernuts

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Great, so taxes will go up 22% then also.
No. There is a thing called millage rates that the county applies to valuations. These rates can vary by the targeted budgets. Thus, even though assessed values are higher, that does not mean your taxes will follow accordingly.

However, they will be going up.
 
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BCClone

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Not exactly sure.
I would think the roll back % would be increased to lower the actual amount that will be taxed. Property taxes will increase but I will be shocked if its 22%.
Yeah, city councils usually look at this, drop the rate a couple percent, brag they cut taxes (since the rate went down) since it won’t hit for a year and then do very small increases for a year or two. At least that is what the towns in NC Iowa do.

They don’t want the huge increase when it drops, but they end up spending it in about 2-3 years so when prices soften they still jack up the rate.
 

twincyties

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This is one of the downsides of home price appreciation. Property taxes and insurance rates tend to increase and overall monthly housing payments increase in turn.

Will be interesting to see how this plays out with so many people stretching to purchase a home in recent years. Between these increases and overall inflation, Debt to Income (DTI) ratios should be watched closely along with property values.

Most investors allow up to 45% DTI which is your monthly principle, interest, taxes, and insurance (“PITI”) plus other liabilities (auto loans, credit cards, student loans, etc) divided by your monthly gross income. Things like cell phone bills, utilities, day care or tuition expenses, etc are not factored in.

If you have a fixed rate mortgage you’re lucky to have pricinple and interest at the same amount. But these other increases raise your overall payment and the cost of everything else is higher as well.

Stated differently, 45% DTI today is not what it was 3 years ago in terms of that home owners ability to repay.
 

KnappShack

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This is one of the downsides of home price appreciation. Property taxes and insurance rates tend to increase and overall monthly housing payments increase in turn.

Will be interesting to see how this plays out with so many people stretching to purchase a home in recent years. Between these increases and overall inflation, Debt to Income (DTI) ratios should be watched closely along with property values.

Most investors allow up to 45% DTI which is your monthly principle, interest, taxes, and insurance (“PITI”) plus other liabilities (auto loans, credit cards, student loans, etc) divided by your monthly gross income. Things like cell phone bills, utilities, day care or tuition expenses, etc are not factored in.

If you have a fixed rate mortgage you’re lucky to have pricinple and interest at the same amount. But these other increases raise your overall payment and the cost of everything else is higher as well.

Stated differently, 45% DTI today is not what it was 3 years ago in terms of that home owners ability to repay.

The entire country needs a California Prop 13
 

twincyties

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The entire country needs a California Prop 13
It has its pros and cons.

There are a lot of opponents they suggest it’s a regressive tax and has significantly reduced tax revenue for local municipalities.

At the same time, it’s overwhelmingly supported by homeowners for obvious reasons.

I hate paying high property taxes as much as the next guy, but can also objectively accept the fact that if my property value went up 40% in the last three years that some kind of increase in my property taxes isn’t crazy.
 

Pat

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It has its pros and cons.

There are a lot of opponents they suggest it’s a regressive tax and has significantly reduced tax revenue for local municipalities.

At the same time, it’s overwhelmingly supported by homeowners for obvious reasons.

I hate paying high property taxes as much as the next guy, but can also objectively accept the fact that if my property value went up 40% in the last three years that some kind of increase in my property taxes isn’t crazy.

It has also made it that much harder for buyers. Anecdotally, everyone with a house that wants to move keeps both houses and uses the old one as a rental. The artificially deflates taxes let them pay the mortgage AND earn profit while still charging less than a monthly payment would be for a new buyer.
 
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twincyties

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It has also made it that much harder for buyers. Anecdotally, everyone with a house that wants to move keeps both houses and uses the old one as a rental. The artificially deflates taxes let them pay the mortgage AND earn profit while still charging less than a monthly payment would be for a new buyer.
Agree. Great benefit for people that are already owners. Not so much for people trying to buy.
 

mynameisjonas

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Agree. Great benefit for people that are already owners. Not so much for people trying to buy.
Unfortunately in the last two years non-homeowners have been left behind, while homeowners have had a sizable net worth increase. To compound matters for non-homeowners rents are skyrocketing. So not only did they miss on the appreciation they’re also getting hammered by increased prices.
 

cycloneML

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Fed not done til homes and jobs lost. I had an old man in FT dodge tell me years ago that the market hates rising rates. I wish I would have run for the hills.
 

cycloneML

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Unfortunately in the last two years non-homeowners have been left behind, while homeowners have had a sizable net worth increase. To compound matters for non-homeowners rents are skyrocketing. So not only did they miss on the appreciation they’re also getting hammered by increased prices.
In haven’t raised rates. That’s a good way to piss off renters.
 

Rods79

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It has its pros and cons.

There are a lot of opponents they suggest it’s a regressive tax and has significantly reduced tax revenue for local municipalities.

At the same time, it’s overwhelmingly supported by homeowners for obvious reasons.

I hate paying high property taxes as much as the next guy, but can also objectively accept the fact that if my property value went up 40% in the last three years that some kind of increase in my property taxes isn’t crazy.

Serious question since you're in the industry, how do you square the current high appreciation values with the spike in annual inflation-adjusted home prices (similar to 2007) and inflation-adjusted price per square foot at an all time high (above and beyond 2007)? I‘m sure some of that growth is legitimate, and some may also be attributed to a perceived serious housing shortage (although I’m more of the thought that perception is closer to a serious desirable housing shortage). This is all while wage-growth continues to diverge and fall shorter.

Really appears that there are a lot of factors at play right now for me to objectively accept a blanket increase on assessed value for two years in this market without some reasonable balancing with other economic factors. I don’t know the nuances of the assessors formula…so this may be taken into account to some degree, but that 22% number from KCCI seems to indicate it really isn’t. That’s an obscene jump unrivaled by anything other than that seen in the early 2000’s. Consider me one that believes in some sort of restraint on assessments riding the most extreme peaks and valleys of market volatility. There’s got to be a better trend line that can be employed without going regressive.
 

twincyties

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Serious question since you're in the industry, how do you square the current high appreciation values with the spike in annual inflation-adjusted home prices (similar to 2007) and inflation-adjusted price per square foot at an all time high (above and beyond 2007)? I‘m sure some of that growth is legitimate, and some may also be attributed to a perceived serious housing shortage (although I’m more of the thought that perception is closer to a serious desirable housing shortage). This is all while wage-growth continues to diverge and fall shorter.

Really appears that there are a lot of factors at play right now for me to objectively accept a blanket increase on assessed value for two years in this market without some reasonable balancing with other economic factors. I don’t know the nuances of the assessors formula…so this may be taken into account to some degree, but that 22% number from KCCI seems to indicate it really isn’t. That’s an obscene jump unrivaled by anything other than that seen in the early 2000’s. Consider me one that believes in some sort of restraint on assessments riding the most extreme peaks and valleys of market volatility. There’s got to be a better trend line that can be employed without going regressive.
I don’t have a crystal ball, but there are stark contrasts between now and 2007.

There has definitely been what you’ll hear economists call “irrational exuberance” in the market. I’m the surface, this looks and feels similar to pre-last-crisis but underlying funadamentals are different in my opinion.

First, I’d say we are legitimately under supplied in terms of US single family housing. People will argue about how much, but most say it’s in the several millions of units short. So that part is legitimate.

One understated element in all of this is the Millennial generation (largest in our country right now) hitting prime home buying age. Their household formation (I.e. getting married, having kids, etc) is coming later than previous generations, but we’re in the middle of that and it’s driving a lot of demand.

Second, there are Is a ton of single family inventory owned by institutional investors. A lot of people don’t know how much private equity bought up foreclosures during and after the 2008 crash. I’ve always believed (just my opinion) they helped but a bottom in the market that consumers would not have been able to and prevented the crash from being even worse. So while that was good news, the bad news is that they’ve continued their buying spree. Lots of attention now being paid to where their ownership is concentrated. A lot of housing advocates say too much in minority communities and stripping people of homeownership opportunities there. That is another story for another day. Regardless, this is undoubtedly contributing to under supply.

COVID changes the way people bought houses with work from home. And booming economy put a lot of money in peoples’ pockets they otherwise may not have spent. Record low interest rates are also a huge factor here because it gives you considerably more purchasing power.

Now you’ve got tens of millions of homeowners locked in at sun 3% interest rates asking themselves if they really want to move so they can pay more for a house and much higher interest rate to boot. So all a perfect storm.

In conclusion, I would say the shortage is more than just a perception. I worked at Fannie Mae from 2012-2018 and can tell you we went from mopping up the crisis to concern about housing supply (particularly the affordable variety) in a very short period of time. So while this has been hot topic in the news for a couple of years, this has been in the making for a while.

Your point about desirable housing stock is valid. The only place builders can really make a profit on anything remotely “affordable” is far from city commercial centers where commutes are just brutal. COVID work from home flexibilities changed some of this, but return to office could be problematic for some owners that made that leap.

Last thing I would add is that two metrics have historically proven to be pretty reliable indicators of a true bubble. One (which you elude to) is comparison of home price appreciation with wage growth. This part is a little bit concerning right now if you factor in inflation and what that means for affordability in general. The second is comparison of home price appreciation with rental prices. When that diverges it’s typical followed by trouble.

Both of these diverged dramatically during the mid 2000s. The bad news is that rental prices are skyrocketing (although some people will argue forebearsnce caused some landlords- corporate and private - to increase rents to make up for lost revenue). The good news is that it’s a better sign for home prices if these things stay in sync.

I remain somewhat optimistic on home values because underlying credit quality (I.e. borrower ability to repay) is materially better than in 2007 and has been for 13+ years now. Home equity also at an all time high which is another fundamental difference. Would not be surprised if it dipped but don’t see it falling off a cliff like 2007.

As for the assessors, a lot take a formulaic approach to this and are going to take advantage of rising values. Every city/county is a little different. They’ve got rising costs of labor, fuel, etc to run these municipalities so probably need the revenue. Problem for home owners is that their equity is really just on paper until it’s time to actually sell their house
 
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BCClone

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Not exactly sure.
I don’t have a crystal ball, but there are stark contrasts between now and 2007.

There has definitely been what you’ll hear economists call “irrational exuberance” in the market. I’m the surface, this looks and feels similar to pre-last-crisis but underlying funadamentals are different in my opinion.

First, I’d say we are legitimately under supplied in terms of US single family housing. People will argue about how much, but most say it’s in the several millions of units short. So that part is legitimate.

One understated element in all of this is the Millennial generation (largest in our country right now) hitting prime home buying age. Their household formation (I.e. getting married, having kids, etc) is coming later than previous generations, but we’re in the middle of that and it’s driving a lot of demand.

Second, there are Is a ton of single family inventory owned by institutional investors. A lot of people don’t know how much private equity bought up foreclosures during and after the 2008 crash. I’ve always believed (just my opinion) they helped but a bottom in the market that consumers would not have been able to and prevented the crash from being even worse. So while that was good news, the bad news is that they’ve continued their buying spree. Lots of attention now being paid to where their ownership is concentrated. A lot of housing advocates say too much in minority communities and stripping people of homeownership opportunities there. That is another story for another day. Regardless, this is undoubtedly contributing to under supply.

COVID changes the way people bought houses with work from home. And booming economy put a lot of money in peoples’ pockets they otherwise may not have spent. Record low interest rates are also a huge factor here because it gives you considerably more purchasing power.

Now you’ve got tens of millions of homeowners locked in at sun 3% interest rates asking themselves if they really want to move so they can pay more for a house and much higher interest rate to boot. So all a perfect storm.

In conclusion, I would say the shortage is more than just a perception. I worked at Fannie Mae from 2012-2018 and can tell you we went from mopping up the crisis to concern about housing supply (particularly the affordable variety) in a very short period of time. So while this has been hot topic in the news for a couple of years, this has been in the making for a while.

Your point about desirable housing stock is valid. The only place builders can really make a profit on anything remotely “affordable” is far from city commercial centers where commutes are just brutal. COVID work from home flexibilities changed some of this, but return to office could be problematic for some owners that made that leap.

Last thing I would add is that two metrics have historically proven to be pretty reliable indicators of a true bubble. One (which you elude to) is comparison of home price appreciation with wage growth. This part is a little bit concerning right now if you factor in inflation and what that means for affordability in general. The second is comparison of home price appreciation with rental prices. When that diverges it’s typical followed by trouble.

Both of these diverged dramatically during the mid 2000s. The bad news is that rental prices are skyrocketing (although some people will argue forebearsnce caused some landlords- corporate and private - to increase rents to make up for lost revenue). The good news is that it’s a better sign for home prices if these things stay in sync.

I remain somewhat optimistic on home values because underlying credit quality (I.e. borrower ability to repay) is materially better than in 2007 and has been for 13+ years now. Home equity also at an all time high which is another fundamental difference. Would not be surprised if it dipped but don’t see it falling off a cliff like 2007.

As for the assessors, a lot take a formulaic approach to this and are going to take advantage of rising values. Every city/county is a little different. They’ve got rising costs of labor, fuel, etc to run these municipalities so probably need the revenue. Problem for home owners is that their equity is really just on paper until it’s time to actually sell their house
One other major difference between now and 2008 is the government has not adjusted the terms that the banks are operating on, that I know of. Pre-2008, a loan that was 90 days behind could be classified as probable and only require 10% of the loan to be placed in loan loss reserves. Government decided then that those were doutbful loans and required 40-60% (I don't remember the exact amounts, but the concept still holds) of the loan value to be held for loan loss reserve. This pushed a lot of lenders to either need to call in loans, or find a way to cover them. Money you put in loan loss reserves is considered to be an expense when you put it there, another reason the banks had awful financials nearly over night.
 

KnappShack

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One other major difference between now and 2008 is the government has not adjusted the terms that the banks are operating on, that I know of. Pre-2008, a loan that was 90 days behind could be classified as probable and only require 10% of the loan to be placed in loan loss reserves. Government decided then that those were doutbful loans and required 40-60% (I don't remember the exact amounts, but the concept still holds) of the loan value to be held for loan loss reserve. This pushed a lot of lenders to either need to call in loans, or find a way to cover them. Money you put in loan loss reserves is considered to be an expense when you put it there, another reason the banks had awful financials nearly over night.

Reminds me of the neg am loans. I jumped from the subprime side when the world started to end. The supposed "prime" side of the house was running wild with pick-a-pay loans. Same side of the coin ....

Those sons a ******* did some real damage.
 

BCClone

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Not exactly sure.
Reminds me of the neg am loans. I jumped from the subprime side when the world started to end. The supposed "prime" side of the house was running wild with pick-a-pay loans. Same side of the coin ....

Those sons a ******* did some real damage.
The interest only loans were bad. If houses dropped 10-15% and now you were 6 months behind, you could almost be at 100% LTV.

Not sure of larger towns, but I appraised houses for a few years and since I wasn't fully certified yet, the owner had to do all the FHA loans (which were the lions share of them) an with the seller kickbacks, people were buying houses for like 500 bucks down.
 

Beernuts

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Fed not done til homes and jobs lost. I had an old man in FT dodge tell me years ago that the market hates rising rates. I wish I would have run for the hills.
I wish I had and old man in FT Dodge to ask questions:

Why does God hate my Minnesota Vikings?

Will my adult children ever get married?

How do I take care of the mole in my back yard?

Why are my eyebrows growing so fast as I get older?

....What is your old man in Ft Dodge question?