Jerome Tang not getting good ROI for Hawkins

[Sigmapolis]

Disagree. Its not that hard to rebuild in bball. Just need a couple guys to have a competitive team. Of course, you have to hire a good coach.

TJ was +20 wins in year 1 vs prior year. And that was with an entirely new group of guys - I don't think they returned 1 point of production from prior season.

That's an outlier of course, but just saying its WAAY more possible to make a competitive team in bball from scratch than say, football where you have ~dozen assistant coaches, and 100 guys all to wrangle.

Prohm didn’t get a lot of cupcake games his last season because of COVID. They played two; they won two. Don’t get me wrong, that team was bad and went 0-19 against the Big 12, but the 2-win number has always been skewed by the weird COVID schedule. In a normal year that team still wins a pitiful eight or nine or so (bad) games.

It wasn’t a completely new roster; 210 points of scoring returned between Tre Jackson, Jaden Walker, and George Conditt, two depth guards on the Sweet Sixteen team and the starting big man (most of the time, trading off with Big Rob). Don’t get me wrong, the program was in bad shape when TJ took over. The turnaround has been magnificent. But you don’t need to come up with exaggerations about how that last Prohm year went when the known and easily verifiable facts are so bad on their own.

(Javan Johnson brought another 203 and Xavier Foster another 28. Both left during fall camp. Blake Hinson was initially going to stay, too, before ending up at Pitt.)

 

[AllInForISU]

Don't disagree with what you've said, but TJ took Iowa State from a 2-22 team to the Sweet 16 in one season (extreme example, I know), so rebuilding a team can happen A LOT quicker in basketball, especially in the NIL/portal era.

The one thing in which Iowa State seems to excel is culture (for both basketball and football). In this wild west pay for play environment that we're now in, I think culture becomes even more important. I'd say that's Iowa State's secret weapon right now.

Just because it happened to a team you are hyper focused on, doesn’t mean it’s easy after you fire a coach and lose players.

It’s like saying it’s easy in football because Cignetti did it with Indiana.

I think those 2 examples are certainly the outlier.

And while the portal has made it easier in general to rebuild, it has a unique set of challenges we haven’t seen before in college sports.

If you don’t have a strong vision and culture in place, you will almost certainly fail to meet expectations in this era of college athletics.

 

[CascadeClone]

It wasn’t a completely new roster; 210 points of scoring returned between Tre Jackson, Jaden Walker, and George Conditt,

Ah, I missed Tre Jackson and GC4. Should have taken 5 more minutes to look instead of shortcutting to wikipedia lol. Thanks.

 

[AllInForISU]

Prohm didn’t get a lot of cupcake games his last season because of COVID. They played two; they won two. Don’t get me wrong, that team was bad and went 0-19 against the Big 12, but the 2-win number has always been skewed by the weird COVID schedule. In a normal year that team still wins a pitiful eight or nine or so (bad) games.

It wasn’t a completely new roster; 210 points of scoring returned between Tre Jackson, Jaden Walker, and George Conditt, two depth guards on the Sweet Sixteen team and the starting big man (most of the time, trading off with Big Rob). Don’t get me wrong, the program was in bad shape when TJ took over. The turnaround has been magnificent. But you don’t need to come up with exaggerations about how that last Prohm year went when the known and easily verifiable facts are so bad on their own.

(Javan Johnson brought another 203 and Xavier Foster another 28. Both left during fall camp. Blake Hinson was initially going to stay, too, before ending up at Pitt.)

Talk about exaggerations. Tre Jackson and Jaden Walker barely played, Walker especially and Jackson after the non conference.

Let’s be honest though Tre Jackson and Jaden Walker had no business being on P5 team. I’m sure they are fine people, not P5 basketball players.

And 210 points? That’s less than 10 ppg combined between 3 players.

They were bad.

 

[brokenloginagain]

Coleman Hawkins is the best.

That kid took his time, went late into the portal, and found someone desperate/dumb enough to stupidly overpay for him, and now he's cashing out big time $$$$.

He's a genius, and several others will follow his lead and do the same again next year.

KSU was dumb to pay Tang, and dumb to sign Hawkins - love that they're in our conference! EMAS (sucker!).

 

[FerShizzle]

He can spot, and get talent. But he doesn't seem to give any thought into how that talent fits with their program, system or culture. Like, "give me the best talent we can find and I'll make it work" but he doesn't have the coaching chops to make it work each year. Their team last year was loaded with talent, and had zero chemistry.

he is wayne morgan 2.0. zero coaching seems to be happening. just roll the ball out there and see what happens. and he has about as much charisma as he does social awareness.

 

[Cyclonepride]

KState really needs this win tonight.
They are looking at a bad March announcement.

From what I've seen, I wouldn't be surprised if Drake beats them. K State hasn't beaten anyone with a pulse, and that new Drake coach has done an amazing job right out of the gate. In the games I've seen, they may not have athletes that jump off the screen, but they execute like a veteran team. Exactly the type of team that you don't want to face if your team isn't gelling well.

 

[Pope]

Just because it happened to a team you are hyper focused on, doesn’t mean it’s easy after you fire a coach and lose players.

It’s like saying it’s easy in football because Cignetti did it with Indiana.

I think those 2 examples are certainly the outlier.

And while the portal has made it easier in general to rebuild, it has a unique set of challenges we haven’t seen before in college sports.

If you don’t have a strong vision and culture in place, you will almost certainly fail to meet expectations in this era of college athletics.

As I said, Iowa State is an extreme example, but there's no doubt a complete rebuild can be done WAY faster in basketball, especially now when players can transfer whenever and wherever they want without having to sit a year.

 

[Cloned4Life]

Disagree. Its not that hard to rebuild in bball. Just need a couple guys to have a competitive team. Of course, you have to hire a good coach.

TJ was +20 wins in year 1 vs prior year. And that was with an entirely new group of guys - I don't think they returned 1 point of production from prior season.

That's an outlier of course, but just saying its WAAY more possible to make a competitive team in bball from scratch than say, football where you have ~dozen assistant coaches, and 100 guys all to wrangle.

Well said, agree.

And this has been the case for the last 30+ years too. Some of our best squads came out of absolutely no where, stemming from a brand-new group of core guys.

95-96 with Dedric, Cato, Pratt, Bankhead, etc.
99-00 with Tinsley, Horton, etc.
11-12 with Royce, Babb, Allen, etc.
21-22 with Gabe, Brockington, Tyrese, Jaz, etc.
And of course this year - I would argue the 4 transfers make us a very different (and higher ceiling) team

Obviously, it helps to have an established culture but even a new coach can come in an establish a culture/mentality quickly with a new set of players that fit that mold.

 

[JP4CY]

From what I've seen, I wouldn't be surprised if Drake beats them. K State hasn't beaten anyone with a pulse, and that new Drake coach has done an amazing job right out of the gate. In the games I've seen, they may not have athletes that jump off the screen, but they execute like a veteran team. Exactly the type of team that you don't want to face if your team isn't gelling well.

I really like that PG Stirtz for Drake.

 

[Sigmapolis]

Talk about exaggerations. Tre Jackson and Jaden Walker barely played, Walker especially and Jackson after the non conference.

Let’s be honest though Tre Jackson and Jaden Walker had no business being on P5 team. I’m sure they are fine people, not P5 basketball players.

And 210 points? That’s less than 10 ppg combined between 3 players.

They were bad.

…you glossed Conditt, who started for TJ.

Prohm did a bad job, but there’s no need for exaggeration.

 

[Pope]

From what I've seen, I wouldn't be surprised if Drake beats them. K State hasn't beaten anyone with a pulse, and that new Drake coach has done an amazing job right out of the gate. In the games I've seen, they may not have athletes that jump off the screen, but they execute like a veteran team. Exactly the type of team that you don't want to face if your team isn't gelling well.

The Drake/KSU game is going to be a classic example of one team with lots of talented players who don't play that well together vs a team with less talented players who play very well together.

I think this was originally intended to be one of those pre-conference tune up games for KSU, but the game has now taken on a whole new level of significance. It's only December, but KSU already has their backs against the wall. So although I'd normally pick the less talented team that plays really well together, I've got a feeling KSU may play with a high amount of intensity because it's already do or die time for them.

Got a feeling it's gonna be a very entertaining game.

 

[CascadeClone]

The Drake/KSU game is going to be a classic example of one team with lots of talented players who don't play that well together vs a team with less talented players who play very well together.

I know who I always root for in those games!

 

[mj4cy]

…you glossed Conditt, who started for TJ.

Prohm did a bad job, but there’s no need for exaggeration.

I couldn't tell you how many times we called a timeout to draw up an inbound play to only get a 5 second call....

I really liked Prohm and wanted it to work out for him but he just wasn't a good long term fit. He could spot talent but just couldn't get the X's and O's to line up.

 

[heitclone]

Plus it’s a huge rebuild when a coach leaves. One benefit IMO of the transfer portal is schools can’t have such a knee jerk reaction to one subpar season from a coach.

Iowa State went to the sweet 16 in year one of the TJ era, Tang took K State to the final four in his first year. I think it's the exact opposite of what you said, it's never been easier to rebuild. Heck look at Drake, you can bring your old team with you if you want. It's the easiest time there has ever been to rebuild. Especially with the line of money K State is willing to spend.

 

[HoustonClone]

We have family friends who sent their oldest to Kansas State to row. She's having a great experience. We, on the other hand, sent our oldest to Iowa State. So far he has bragging rights.

One day last fall shortly after they had both arrived on their respective campuses, we were comparing notes and pictures with our friends. My friend proudly showed me a selfie his daughter took at a football game with....you guessed it.....Tang. I did my best to not say anything, as they were raving about his character, etc...

 

[RagingCloner]

View attachment 139684

Boy he should be careful. One wrong move and one of those nips will slice that sword in half

 

[CyCity]

Let’s go Drake!

 

[Drew0311]

…you glossed Conditt, who started for TJ.

Prohm did a bad job, but there’s no need for exaggeration.

Conditt would have been a good Center with a few years under TJ. Playing that Big Rob Energy roll. He just was not a scoring type typical Center.

 

[Sigmapolis]

I couldn't tell you how many times we called a timeout to draw up an inbound play to only get a 5 second call....

I really liked Prohm and wanted it to work out for him but he just wasn't a good long term fit. He could spot talent but just couldn't get the X's and O's to line up.

My final summation of Prohm...

Nice guy. Good man. No problems there.

Not the most suave but had a goofy middle-aged dad charm about him.

Bizarrely inconsistent talent evaluator. Some massive hits. Lots of absolute bombs.

Put together some good offenses but had zero idea how to teach team defense.

Not a great eye for assistants -- gee many should have hired Kyle Green as a defensive coordinator (maybe the best move TJ has made so far) and gotten AJ Green as a bonus.

Could not handle the egos in the locker room. Worked fine when he still had the Hoiberg guys around who knew how to police themselves, but it fell apart once those guys left the program.

Seems like a guy who should be a good career mid-major coach but probably not a P5 guy.