NIL Shenanigans

[jdubs]

I don’t think it’s a huge stretch. The collective could argue for specific performance. Do I think they’d win? No, but I wouldn’t want to do anything until it got sorted.

And I think there’s probably got to be something more here, but if not I still probably wouldn’t say Wisconsin was in the wrong. If the rumors are true, he screwed Wisconsin over and he’s being screwed over in return.

I do think there is probably more here.

However:

I think its a stretch around the world to think a school's collective would sue the school they support for a million reasons. Counterproductive, bad PR, etc.

If Wisconsin paid the guy early (almost certainly to get the money out before the House rev-share cap is in place) that's the risk they took. The contract should have had some clawbacks or some other non-performance based protection built in (e.g., sign autographs in Madison on Tuesdays during the season).

This isn't kindergarten, two wrongs don't make a right. The NCAA rules are pretty clear if the paperwork is submitted the player must be in the portal within two business days. And the courts have affirmed multiple times schools/NCAA can't restrict player transfer. It's so black and white that's why I think there's something else to the story.

 

[WooBadger18]

I do think there is probably more here.

However:

I think its a stretch around the world to think a school's collective would sue the school they support for a million reasons. Counterproductive, bad PR, etc.

If Wisconsin paid the guy early (almost certainly to get the money out before the House rev-share cap is in place) that's the risk they took. The contract should have had some clawbacks or some other non-performance based protection built in (e.g., sign autographs in Madison on Tuesdays during the season).

This isn't kindergarten, two wrongs don't make a right. The NCAA rules are pretty clear if the paperwork is submitted the player must be in the portal within two business days. And the courts have affirmed multiple times schools/NCAA can't restrict player transfer. It's so black and white that's why I think there's something else to the story.

I think if they sued, it would more be like when you’re injured at your relatives house, and you have to file a lawsuit to get insurance involved (i.e. not contentious).

And I agree the University shouldn’t block the move. The appropriate response is for the collective to sue him. I’m just not going feel sympathy for an athlete who basically steals from a collective and screws over the team.

My reason for posting it here was that you allegedly have athletes basically stealing from collectives.

 

[Clonehomer]

I still say this blows up in a massive Title IX class action lawsuit by the schools taking NIL in-house. Once there's enough proof and a big enough amount of money that's been instructed by schools to divert donations to the school instead to collectives, it could spell legal trouble.

If employees of a government organization, which ADs and coaches are, suggest to donors to give money to a 3rd party rather than the institution they work for, that seems like a slam dunk case that the schools are purposely trying to skirt a federal law.

We've been hearing about "diversion" or "rebalancing" from donors, which means ADs and coaches are telling donors to put money into the collective instead of the athletic department. Just a matter of time before we get a big class action lawsuit that schools are actively harming female athletes by reducing donations to athletic departments (subject to Title IX) in favor of NIL (not subject to Title IX).

So this is a lesser talked about part of NCAA settlement. NIL outside of the $22m allotted from the school will be scrutinized by a new NCAA clearinghouse to verify that the NIL deals are in-line with the endorsements or appearances provided. Now, that remains to be seen if that’ll actually slow down the pay for play from collectives seen over the past couple years, but you may see the collectives turning more to businesses to coordinate advertisements rather than just handing over cash from donors.

So unless a school is using the entire $22m allotment, it really benefits them to have donor money come in-house where they can monitor it and pay the players directly.

As far as Title IX, I’ve yet to hear anyone suggest they know how that’ll work. I don’t believe the settlement agreement that created that allotment specified how it would be distributed. I’m sure there will be years of lawsuits to work out the details of whether that $22m must be distributed evenly or is it based on revenue received by each sport or is it the Wild West.

 

[Cyhig]

Do players have a NIL contract they sign? From a legal perspective, I don't know how much of a case players have unless there is a signed contract. The text messages from the coach would probably be their best evidence, but I don't know what the messages actually said.

It's really tough to prove a "he said/she said" case without any written evidence

 

[jbhtexas]

Regarding the thread title, I heard that the 2025 Oxford English Dictionary will have NIL listed as a synonym for shenanigans...

 

[isucy86]

Do players have a NIL contract they sign? From a legal perspective, I don't know how much of a case players have unless there is a signed contract. The text messages from the coach would probably be their best evidence, but I don't know what the messages actually said.

It's really tough to prove a "he said/she said" case without any written evidence

During Blum/Williams podcast last week, Brent mentioned that Tyler Onyedim had agreed to an NIL deal with ISU but later entered the portal. Brent basically said the NIL deals aren't enforceable by the schools.

IMO NIL is going to continue to be a mess as long as players aren't employees subject to a CBO. Also in the Badger case, if they gave a kid "big" money up front- that's just a stupid business decision in the current wild west NIL environment. It seems like schools should be paying NIL on a monthly basis and contingent on guys still being on the team. And also have a portion of NIL be tied to playing in bowl/post season games.

 

[Clonehomer]

During Blum/Williams podcast last week, Brent mentioned that Tyler Onyedim had agreed to an NIL deal with ISU but later entered the portal. Brent basically said the NIL deals aren't enforceable by the schools.

IMO NIL is going to continue to be a mess as long as players aren't employees subject to a CBO. Also in the Badger case, if they gave a kid "big" money up front- that's just a stupid business decision in the current wild west NIL environment. It seems like schools should be paying NIL on a monthly basis and contingent on guys still being on the team. And also have a portion of NIL be tied to playing in bowl/post season games.

It shouldn’t be that difficult. If these deals are for endorsements and advertising as they should be, just write it in that they will be paid for appearances throughout the season. Autograph signings during the week or something. If they transfer, they can’t be at the appearances.

Stop giving the money upfront. Give it in installments based on those appearances.

 

[Mr Janny]

During Blum/Williams podcast last week, Brent mentioned that Tyler Onyedim had agreed to an NIL deal with ISU but later entered the portal. Brent basically said the NIL deals aren't enforceable by the schools.

IMO NIL is going to continue to be a mess as long as players aren't employees subject to a CBO. Also in the Badger case, if they gave a kid "big" money up front- that's just a stupid business decision in the current wild west NIL environment. It seems like schools should be paying NIL on a monthly basis and contingent on guys still being on the team. And also have a portion of NIL be tied to playing in bowl/post season games.

They're certainly welcome to try to offer that kind of structure. But another school/collective, with deeper pockets, is free to say "If you come here, you won't have to wait for your NIL money" or offer a deal with fewer strings attached. That's the risk you run.

 

[isucy86]

They're certainly welcome to try to offer that kind of structure. But another school/collective, with deeper pockets, is free to say "If you come here, you won't have to wait for your NIL money" or offer a deal with fewer strings attached. That's the risk you run.

Agree. But that is where a CBA would be effective in setting up standard contract language. Similar to what we see with professional sport contracts.

 

[syclonefan]

It shouldn’t be that difficult. If these deals are for endorsements and advertising as they should be, just write it in that they will be paid for appearances throughout the season. Autograph signings during the week or something. If they transfer, they can’t be at the appearances.

Stop giving the money upfront. Give it in installments based on those appearances.

I believe a lot also put in writing that they need to be living within a certain radius as well. Iirc that is how Iowa got out of paying Proctor some money.

 

[Mr Janny]

Agree. But that is where a CBA would be effective in setting up standard contract language. Similar to what we see with professional sport contracts.

True, but a CBA can't just be willed into existence. Players need to form a union first. The schools can't compel that. And then enough players need to join it, for it to be effective at all. And then the union would have to agree to rules that force all contracts to be structured that way. There are quite a few hoops to jump through before we get to the point where the idea you're proposing becomes reality.

 

[VeloClone]

I can tell you that my daughter had classes with a couple football players and one WBB player (off the top of my head) and the answer to if they attend class or work on projects together, is rarely.

My daughter had class with Kelsey Joens last term and she was in class almost every day and doing the work.

 

[BCClone]

My daughter had class with Kelsey Joens last term and she was in class almost every day and doing the work.

That’s good. The one woman’s basketball player always wanted to be by my daughter (couple years ago) in class the first two weeks and then never came back except maybe once after that.

 

[isucy86]

True, but a CBA can't just be willed into existence. Players need to form a union first. The schools can't compel that. And then enough players need to join it, for it to be effective at all. And then the union would have to agree to rules that force all contracts to be structured that way. There are quite a few hoops to jump through before we get to the point where the idea you're proposing becomes reality.

It shouldn't surprise anyone, but there are a group of entities currently positioning themselves to be the Union for athletes. They are seeing $$$ and bringing on big name former athletes to bring credibility to their entity.

 

[Mr Janny]

It shouldn't surprise anyone, but there are a group of entities currently positioning themselves to be the Union for athletes. They are seeing $$$ and bringing on big name former athletes to bring credibility to their entity.

It still takes players wanting to join. They need to see the benefit. What does a player's union offer someone like Archie Manning, or Cam Ward, or any blue chip player, that they can't already get in the current environment?

 

[CYdTracked]

I can tell you that my daughter had classes with a couple football players and one WBB player (off the top of my head) and the answer to if they attend class or work on projects together, is rarely.

It was that way back when I was in school too. Had a history class that I was worried about just passing coming into the final exam. Same class I watch Darren Davis and a few other FB players walk in, find a seat in the upper deck of the Curtis Hall auditorium and never take out a notepad and pen and instead usually took a nap most days. Surely someone was helping them outside of lecture because there is no way they would of passed the class otherwise.

I did have classes with several WBB players over the years and they actually paid attention during lectures and took notes. Football is a different beast as many of those guys think they have a chance of playing after college even though maybe 5% or less of the guys on the roster will ever sniff the NFL. For as much as I can't stand Coach Prime's antics and egos sometimes I do think he actually cares about preparing his players for life after football. There are several videos out there of his ripping on his team about anything from cleaning up a messy locker room, how to treat female staff, cell phone use, and this may be my favorite:

 

[JP4CY]

It still takes players wanting to join. They need to see the benefit. What does a player's union offer someone like Archie Manning, or Cam Ward, or any blue chip player, that they can't already get in the current environment?

When Northwestern tried a few years back, I don't think it got a lot of traction, did it?

 

[BCClone]

It was that way back when I was in school too. Had a history class that I was worried about just passing coming into the final exam. Same class I watch Darren Davis and a few other FB players walk in, find a seat in the upper deck of the Curtis Hall auditorium and never take out a notepad and pen and instead usually took a nap most days. Surely someone was helping them outside of lecture because there is no way they would of passed the class otherwise.

I did have classes with several WBB players over the years and they actually paid attention during lectures and took notes. Football is a different beast as many of those guys think they have a chance of playing after college even though maybe 5% or less of the guys on the roster will ever sniff the NFL. For as much as I can't stand Coach Prime's antics and egos sometimes I do think he actually cares about preparing his players for life after football. There are several videos out there of his ripping on his team about anything from cleaning up a messy locker room, how to treat female staff, cell phone use, and this may be my favorite:

Back in the 70s my BIL was a tutor, he said they were some dumb guys and they had people take their tests.

There is a former FB player who no lives with the woman who was his tutor, so love may even blossom from it

 

[CYdTracked]

With universities having to budget to pay players coming soon I think it's all the more reason these NIL deals become contracts. Not only to protect the players but also the schools. The players are essentially becoming employees of the university so if you do not meet the terms of your contract you don't receive all the money and on the flip side it also puts the responsibility of the university to hold their end of the deal and actually pay what they promised if it is in writing in a contract.

I think this is about the only way the issues that have come up with NIL ever get reigned in a bit is to start putting legal binding contracts in place to protect all parties involved. If you decide to sit out and transfer then you don't get paid the full amount. If the school doesn't pay what they promised the player now has a contract they can sue the school for compensation for not holding their end of the deal. Coaches usually have some kind of buyout on their contract if they take a job at another school, maybe if getting the full amount of NIL compensation is tied to you staying at the school or at the very least completing a full season before transferring it would help prevent some of the issues we are seeing as a result of NIL. I'm not against these kids getting paid but if I don't show up for work or abide by the terms of my employment they would terminate me with no further compensation. This is essentially a job for college athletes now and they shouldn't be immune from having some responsibilities on their end too.

 

[isucy86]

It still takes players wanting to join. They need to see the benefit. What does a player's union offer someone like Archie Manning, or Cam Ward, or any blue chip player, that they can't already get in the current environment?

You could use that same agruement in professional sports that the NFLPA or MLBPA doesn't really benefit guys like Mahomes or Judge vs. the average player- but they still exist.

With over 6000 P4 college football players the benefit to many will override the benefit to the few.

And it the case of the blue-chip guys. How long before the NFL or NBA is required to lift their age restrictions? IMO the Diego Pavia court decision opens the door for athletes jumping to the pro leagues earlier. Some lawyer will push the issue.