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JP4CY

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From wiki, it says ISU let women in the band during WW2. Is that correct?
I guess I was floored KU didn't have women in the band until the 70s.

I took a photo this weekend:
20221001-143225.jpg
 

Sigmapolis

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From wiki, it says ISU let women in the band during WW2. Is that correct?
I guess I was floored KU didn't have women in the band until the 70s.

I took a photo this weekend:
20221001-143225.jpg

"Women had participated in the band in stationary performances as early as 1928, and as majorettes and 'unofficially' on bell instruments during the World War II years."

https://www.music.iastate.edu/music-histories/iowa-state-6
 
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alarson

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"Women had participated in the band in stationary performances as early as 1928, and as majorettes and 'unofficially' on bell instruments during the World War II years."

https://www.music.iastate.edu/music-histories/iowa-state-6

Im wondering if this was temporary as well.

Because I see another page (the 2017 ISU marching band handbook, actually) saying women weren't officially allowed as members in the ISU band until 1972 (which is the date for a lot of college marching bands- title IX forced it)
 
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Sigmapolis

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Im wondering if this was temporary as well.

Because I see another page (the 2017 ISU marching band handbook, actually) saying women weren't officially allowed as members in the ISU band until 1972 (which is the date for a lot of college marching bands- title IX forced it)

Sounds like a wartime exigency. Seems the director at the time didn't want women members --

"With an insufficient number of male students during the war, Alvin Edgar, much to his chagrin, felt that he HAD to allow women in the Iowa State marching band. When the GIs returned the first fall quarter following the end of the war, all women were replaced by men EXCEPT the two bells players.

At the Saturday morning rehearsal for the first home game, the block stood in formation centerfield, with the two bells players directly in front of the block, facing the east stadium bleachers. We were all to remove our 'policemen's style' hats in response to the proud announcement, 'Introducing Iowa State's 120-piece ALL-MALE marching band.'

The 'women's lib' in me suggested to Helen that we skip the bobby pins that afternoon, which we did, and our long dark tresses fell to our shoulders for ALL to see.

Yes, we were kicked out of the band immediately. Well, Mr. Edgar thought that anyone who could play keyboard could pick up the bells to replace us. After all kinds of auditioning, advertising persuading, etc., he could find NO MAN who could transpose the Bb cornet music, memorize it, and march in time for any performance. So, he called us in, and wanted to 'do us a favor.' We could still be in the band IF we would turn in our black uniforms and instead were WHITE DRUM-MAJOR uniforms, and march IN FRONT of the block behind the twirlers. Thus salving his conscience to call it an ALL-MALE MARCHING BAND.

THAT is why for the rest of Mr. Edgar's life, the bells players had to wear AT LEAST white pants when new uniforms were ordered."


That's obviously a pretty uncomfortable story of the sexism of the times, but history is what it is. I think it took a long time for the College of Engineering to welcome female students, too.

Back to the 1970s...

Citing myself (as the author of the Wikipedia article on the marching band in ~2006 or so minus whatever minor updates since, but I probably used the handbook as my main source) --

"As a part of a national movement by college bands to open their ranks to female members, women joined the band in 1972."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iowa_State_University_Cyclone_Marching_Band#History

I think I might have verbatim taken that wording from the handbook thinking back on it.
 
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alarson

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alarson

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It makes sense with the 50th Anniversary of Title IX. It just surprised me that women were not part of some Marching Bands until the 1970s. So, this is a good history lesson for us!

For sure! Even today, the marching music activity tends to be fairly male-tilted, not just in membership but especially in staff positions, where men tend to hold most of them still (From what I can find, all big 12 marching band directors, including the new schools, are men).

Hell, that michigan show I linked was designed by someone I know, who happens to be the first female drill designer in DCI (Basically the highest level of competitive marching bands, for those unfamiliar). She was the first female drill writer to design a show that made DCI finals, and that finally happened just 2 months ago.
 
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Jnecker4cy

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For sure! Even today, the marching music activity tends to be fairly male-tilted, not just in membership but especially in staff positions, where men tend to hold most of them still (From what I can find, all big 12 marching band directors, including the new schools, are men).

Hell, that michigan show I linked was designed by someone I know, who happens to be the first female drill designer in DCI (Basically the highest level of competitive marching bands, for those unfamiliar). She was the first female drill writer to design a show that made DCI finals, and that finally happened just 2 months ago.
My son is going to try out for a couple of DCI groups I think. Any advice for him?
 

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For sure! Even today, the marching music activity tends to be fairly male-tilted, not just in membership but especially in staff positions, where men tend to hold most of them still (From what I can find, all big 12 marching band directors, including the new schools, are men).

Hell, that michigan show I linked was designed by someone I know, who happens to be the first female drill designer in DCI (Basically the highest level of competitive marching bands, for those unfamiliar). She was the first female drill writer to design a show that made DCI finals, and that finally happened just 2 months ago.

I think the way young women and young men are "socialized" into music in middle school and high school contributes to this, especially in their initial choice of an instrument when they start.

The "main" instrument of nearly all college marching band directors or high-level DC brass I've known was either trumpet, trombone, drumline, and sometimes a smaller brass section (e.g., mellis). Very rarely do they seem to be a woodwind player, a sax player, or do they come out of flagline or twirling.

Young men dominate the former while young women are more common in the latter. I think there are two reasons for this. Firstly, brass and percussion instruments are heavier. A sousaphone or bass drum weighs a lot more than does a clarinet or an alto. Secondly, trumpet, trombone, and etc. are loud, boisterous instruments compared to the more reserved, quiet woodwinds. I don't think you need to meet many teenage boys to compare them to their peer girls to guess which group is going to be attracted to which type of instrument.

Add in the fact many college marching bands and DCs don't march with woodwinds at all (or only with saxophones if they do) and that brass and drums really *are* a marching band (sorry to any woodies out there, but you're hard to hear outside... not your fault, but there's a reason you're generally charted in the back of the field, you're there to make the band bigger and even the male/female ratio out, not to crank up the decibels)...

...and you end up with a pool of mostly men heading into those leadership positions.
 
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alarson

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I think the way young women and young men are "socialized" into music in middle school and high school contributes to this, especially in their initial choice of an instrument when they start.

The "main" instrument of nearly all college marching band directors or high-level DC brass I've known was either trumpet, trombone, drumline, and sometimes a smaller brass section (e.g., mellis). Very rarely do they seem to be a woodwind player, a sax player, or do they come out of flagline or twirling.

Young men dominate the former while young women are more common in the latter. I think there are two reasons for this. Firstly, brass and percussion instruments are heavier. A sousaphone or bass drum weighs a lot more than does a clarinet or an alto. Secondly, trumpet, trombone, and etc. are loud, boisterous instruments compared to the more reserved, quiet woodwinds. I don't think you need to meet many teenage boys to compared them to their peer girls to guess which group is going to be attracted to which type of instrument.

Add in the fact many college marching bands and DCs don't march with woodwinds at all (or only with saxophones if they do) and that brass and drums really *are* a marching band (sorry to any woodies out there, but you're hard to hear outside... not your fault, but there's a reason you're generally charted in the back of the field, you're there to make the band bigger and even the male/female ratio out, not to crank up the decibels)...

...and you end up with a pool of mostly men heading into those leadership positions.
Good points all around. Though FWIW, it also goes beyond marching band a bit into music professors in general at the college level. Last I remember it was like 70% of college music professors are men.
 

alarson

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My son is going to try out for a couple of DCI groups I think. Any advice for him?

Granted its been a bit since i've marched myself, but i've remained somewhat connected.

As far as auditions are concerned:
- lots of practice
- cardio and core strength (the latter, in particular, for brass), as movement is a larger and larger portion of DCI over the years.
- For auditions\camps, show up and be a sponge for information. All else being equal, the kid who shows up, takes direction, and improves is going to be the one the staff prefers over the one who has more talent on day 1. Plenty of time to make the teachable kid better.

I think some camps are doing some of the initial audition stuff remotely now, which is a time-saver.

And good luck to your\his bank account. Its not cheap these days. I think dues were about $1000 back in 2005\6 when I marched. Now I see many corps are in the $4-5k range. Its a great experience, but I don't think I would've been able to do it if those were the prices then.

Happy to try to help if there are any more questions (And I know there are a few others on here who also did DCI who may be able to comment as well). r/drumcorps on reddit is also pretty helpful, they should probably have a catchall auditions megathread up as we get further into fall.
 

Kinch

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My son is going to try out for a couple of DCI groups I think. Any advice for him?
Focus on marching. The biggest pet peeve of our band members was if a member couldn’t do 22 1/2 inch steps (or whatever it is now) consistently. You can hide a newbie horn player who can march. Showmanship is big in DCI.
 
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Jnecker4cy

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Focus on marching. The biggest pet peeve of our band members was if a member couldn’t do 22 1/2 inch steps (or whatever it is now) consistently. You can hide a newbie horn player who can march. Showmanship is big in DCI.
I will let him know. To be honest I have no clue what you meant with the 22 1/2 but he will.

He is doing a couple of on line auditions to start so we will see how those go.
 

alarson

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Focus on marching. The biggest pet peeve of our band members was if a member couldn’t do 22 1/2 inch steps (or whatever it is now) consistently. You can hide a newbie horn player who can march. Showmanship is big in DCI.

Agree with the second part of this. Back in the day we even had members who literally learned to play brass while on tour (former percussionists). People who couldnt hack certain parts of the music would get washed out of those portions. But you can't hide bad marching. Trust me, I tried :D

With regards to the first part, I think the 22.5 step mostly just matters for setting drill and basics block. When actually on the move, your step sizes between dots are rarely an exact 8 to 5 or 6 to 5, what's more important is being able to take a consistent step size from dot A to dot B.
 

aeroclone

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I will let him know. To be honest I have no clue what you meant with the 22 1/2 but he will.

He is doing a couple of on line auditions to start so we will see how those go.
22.5 inch steps will allow you to cover exactly 5 yards in 8 steps. You will also hear the term 8 to 5. This is sort of the default marching step size. You will see a lot of this in the ISU pregame, where if you watch a single member they will hit a yardline every 8 steps
 
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GoldCy

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Any of you aficionados realize the man behind the organization of these events was from Iowa before he formed the group in CA.
 

Kinch

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Agree with the second part of this. Back in the day we even had members who literally learned to play brass while on tour (former percussionists). People who couldnt hack certain parts of the music would get washed out of those portions. But you can't hide bad marching. Trust me, I tried :D

With regards to the first part, I think the 22.5 step mostly just matters for setting drill and basics block. When actually on the move, your step sizes between dots are rarely an exact 8 to 5 or 6 to 5, what's more important is being able to take a consistent step size from dot A to dot B.
for percussion, getting to consistently repeat the 22.5 inch step is important, because, unlike a horn player, a person carrying a large base drum cannot always see to the left or right adequately and since he or she usually anchors one of the line in most blocks, has to put their trust in marching as close as possible to 22.5 inches.
 

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