Thanks, I usually double check these things but it was late and I was lazy. I knew we had never lost to Baylor at home and figured we went down to Baylor and lost, but we were still the Big 12 back then.
A question to any Baylor fans checking in on us
- Thread starter mt85
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Thanks, I usually double check these things but it was late and I was lazy. I knew we had never lost to Baylor at home and figured we went down to Baylor and lost, but we were still the Big 12 back then.
This problem started long before it got into basketball discussion section of the thread. Not saying you specifically did this, by the time you really entered the fray, Baylor guy was in total defense mode from previous attacks, and then he starts lashing out. Worst part is it was requested that Baylor fans provide an opinion based on the title of the thread, they seemed reasonable. I get if a guy starts out being a jerk all bets are off. Not the case hear.
I guess the fear of Briles staying causes people a lot of concern so they work very hard in telling themselves no way he stays.
Best comment of the bunch was "Baylor is an after thought in football," the irony of such a statement from an ISU fan is priceless. Don't think the person was going for the comedy angle, but it sure came out that way.
I do think Briles would consider A & M or Texas, but that does not mean he will go. Same thing with Fred, you would be naive to think he would not consider a Louisville, Arizona, or a Syracuse, doesn't mean he would take it, but he would most certainly consider it.
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I agree with most, but comparisons with Fred leaving for another college program is not even close to the same thing as Briles leaving. I do think Briles stays because if his talent is coming in and the program is taking shape the way he wants, why would he leave that and build over again? Especially if he wins a title or BCS bowl game. Briles wont leave for Texas or any other job unless that program tanks in the coming years. To me, seems like Pinkel could be a good coaching choice for Texas imo. He has done great thinks at Missouri considering what little tradition is there and he is proven at developing qbs. Would be a good idea before Missouri builds their program up too much.
I think Baylor should score as many as possible every game. They should have scored 100 on us if they could. The two team playoff system we have demands it of teams with a legitimate shot at title which Baylor certainly does. I don't care if they Gatorade their coach, do it every game if it's fun for their team.
Every shred of common sense I have tells me their basketball program is as crooked as it gets, so while I see how they could have done it legitimately in football, I can't just totally get behind them without the back of my mind wondering the whole time.
I agree with Briles, staying or going, either could be a good choice for him. Why would that make an ISU fan upset either way? As long as we have major Texas and Oklahoma schools in our conference several opponents will be loaded with talent, what's it matter if it's Baylor? Hoiberg already did get interest from arguably the highest profile coaching position in his entire sport (Boston Celtics), so I don't think most ISU fans are in denial that the big boys will keep calling and that he'd be silly not to listen. If anything it just makes the Baylor hoops fans seem off-the-charts clueless that they think Drew is a better coach than a guy he is 1-4 against, can't finish in front of in the Big 12, and who the Celtics were interested in hiring.
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Pinkel + Texas = critical mass ego explosion
It could tear apart the fabric of the universe, not a horrible choice for them though.
Unless Briles wants to go to the NFL, if I were in his position I would stay as long as the administration is committed which the new stadium suggests. Why be in Mac Brown's shooes in 10 years when he could be in Bill Snyder's?
Pinkel is an intriguing thought. I honestly thought Mizzou would never compete for a division title in the SEC, and look where they are. Pretty impressive. He could do very well at Texas. The irony is if they are still in the Big 12, he would probably not consider a move to Texas.
Texas just needs a guy that can extract the full potential of the talent they get.
Recruiting to that school is an after thought, you need to turn kids away.
A guy like Franklin from Vanderbilt would be a great hire. Shaw from Stanford. Guys who win or at least field very competitive teams from schools with a disadvantage due to admission standards might produce great results at Texas.
I think A @ M guy leaves for USC, Johnny is gone after this year. So there may be 2 jobs open in Texas.
The thing is coaches need to know when the time is right to leave. A couple of years ago TCU's head man was coveted by lots of teams. Now that TCU is in the Big 12, playing a tougher conference, he is still probably high
on people's lists but I am guessing he has dropped a few slots.
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1.) I shouldn't be responding to this, but I am. You should feel lucky.
2.) How many Elite Eights have you been to under Hoiberg? How many has Drew been to? Head to head contests are for the birds. I'll take actual accomplishments.
3.) Since you don't seem to be willing to actually look at the facts of how our basketball program was built, let me give you a 30,000-foot view just for your own edification, since you're such an educated basketball fan and all.
Scott Drew was hired in 2003 coming off of one of the worst scandals in basketball history. He had a completely depleted roster after everyone left, and for the 2004 season, he sold playing time to some 2- and 3-star guys, one of which was Aaron Bruce. Bruce came in his freshman year and was the focal point, getting us a few unexpected wins (Purdue on the road being one of them) in a pretty terrible season.
The 2005 recruiting class consisted of Henry Dugat, a 4* player that was recruited by Texas and then basically dropped, Curtis Jerrells, a relatively unheralded 3*, and Kevin Rogers, who was holding out for an offer from UNC instead of accepting the Kansas offer he got (due to his friendship with his teammate Darrell Arthur), and ended up with no other option but Baylor. Those three formed the nucleus for the Baylor team going forward, but their freshman year we played only a conference schedule and it was ugly -- 4-12.
The 2006 recruiting class had 4* Tweety Carter who was recruited by everyone because he could score like crazy, but offered by virtually no one but Baylor because he was 5'10 and slow, plus 7'0 project Josh Lomers.
The 2006-2007 season was slightly better, as we finished 15-16 overall and 4-12 in conference again, but we showed some life towards the end of the season and even won a game in the Big 12 tournament.
In 2007-2008, we signed our biggest actual "get" in recruiting, LaceDarius Dunn out of Louisiana. We had heavily recruited Louisiana and had been in on Dunn for years, and he was our first true win, mainly because of the connections with Tweety Carter and Tim Bush out of Louisana previously. Lace's scoring ability propelled the Bears into the NCAA tournament for the first time with a 9-7 conference record, where we proceeded to get trounced by Purdue 90-79. This was the breakthrough for Drew in recruiting, as it finally gave him something tangible to sell.
The 2008 recruiting class gave us late-qualifier 4* Quincy Acy out of Dallas who nobody thought would qualify but we stuck with him, plus 4* Anthony Jones out of Houston Yates who Drew had been recruiting since he was in 7th grade. Both were 4* players, but neither had high-level offers -- Acy because nobody thought he would qualify, Jones because he was a tweener player who was 6'9-185 and couldn't play down low, but also didn't have great handles.
In 2008-2009 we inexplicably missed the tournament and made a run to the NIT final. Baylor fans point to a number of things as why we had a poor run that year, but the general consensus was locker room turmoil between the seniors (Jerrells, Dugat, Rogers) and the younger guys in Dunn and Carter. Either way, terribly disappointing year.
In 2009 we signed a class that was really the most disappointing in Drew's tenure based on the previous years results -- 4* Nolan Dennis who flamed out, 4* Mark McLaughlin who flamed out, 3* Givon Crump who flamed out, and 3* Dragan Sekelja who never played a meaningful minute, plus we also got 3* AJ Walton out of Arkansas and 4* Cory Jefferson, a project out of Killeen. None of these guys were highly recruited despite their ranking --- we beat out Arkansas for Walton, and Jefferson committed a full year before he graduated.
The next year was the biggest year for Baylor yet with our first run to the Elite Eight. That was brought on by bigtime transfer Ekpe Udoh, senior Tweety Carter, junior Lace Dunn, and sophomore Quincy Acy, with contribution from a senior Lomers and a junior Anthony Jones. We had an unbelievably experienced squad, and with the addition of a guy who did virtually nothing at Michigan, we obviously came out of nowhere and won a lot of games that nobody expected us to win.
2010 recruiting was the first year where Baylor had a true "blue chip" commitment from 5* Perry Jones. Drew had been recruiting Jones since he was in 6th or 7th grade, and Baylor was just a perfect fit for him --- soft-spoken kid from a Christian family. It was a big win for Baylor, but at the same time, it was the first bigtime prospect for Drew, and unfortunately, Perry wasn't ready for the bigtime. Despite his size and skillset, he just didn't have the mentality of a leader.
2010-2011 was another disappointing year, mainly because we lost virtually everybody. Perry wasn't a good enough player to lead the Bears with all of their senior losses, and a senior Lace Dunn tried to do too much every time he had the ball.
In 2011, we had our next big recruiting victory, from 5* Quincy Miller and Deuce Bello. The two wanted to play together, and the connection with Dwon and Brian Clifton brought them to Baylor. Baylor also brought in JUCO superstar Pierre Jackson, but he had offers from powerhouses Creighton and Iowa. Hardly a big recruiting coup.
2011-2012 was our next run to the Elite Eight, with a sophomore Perry Jones, a surprising Pierre Jackson, and Quincy Miller contributing enough to make us dangerous.
In 2012 we got Isaiah Austin, another "Drew" type player who was very highly recruited, but who also committed to the Bears very early, citing the Christian environment and family atmosphere. We also picked up Ricardo Gathers from Tweety Carter's high school, along with a few other unheralded type guys in LJ Rose, and Tauren Waller-Prince.
Obviously we missed the dance in 2012-2013, but again, it's not hard to see why when you consider that transfer Brady Heslip fell off the planet and we had no consistent post threat. When you can't shoot from outside with anyone but your PG and you can't get points in the paint from anyone but your PG, you're going to struggle, and we did.
This year the most highly-rated prospect was Ish Wainright from Montrose Christian --- another kid with a strong Christian identity. We also added JUCO PG Kenny Chery, and a few lower-tier 4* guys in Al Freeman and Johnathan Motley. The book has yet to be written on those guys.
Bottom line with this diatribe is that you'd have to be mentally deficient to think that Baylor "suddenly" started getting highly rated recruits. It was a slow and steady buildup, and they are guys who fit Baylor.
Further, to accuse Baylor of impropriety is just insanity. The NCAA literally camped out in our basketball offices for a freaking year, and the only thing they uncovered were some impermissible text messages, a rule that was actually eliminated from the books about 3 months after Baylor got hit with a few meaningless sanctions.
Criticize Drew all you want. Call him a terrible coach -- fine. There are plenty of Baylor fans that do the same thing. But to accuse Baylor of cheating in the face of ANY evidence whatsoever, considering the scrutiny we've been under? It's idiotic and reeks of sour grapes.
If you think the NCAA not finding evidence of cheating somehow clears you of guilt you are a silly little sad man.
I think that it's silly and sad to point fingers when there is a very logical progression of how things have occurred for Baylor. This wasn't built overnight. It didn't happen immediately. The connections between players, continuity on the coaching staff, the relentlessness of the coaches on the recruiting trail....there's a logical reason for it happening.
People like to make it out as though Baylor all of the sudden started recruiting blue chip prospects. That's just not the case. We took leftovers, won a few games, got lucky with a transfer in 2010 in 2012, and recruited kids that fit Baylor to a T.
It's pretty pitiful that supposedly intelligent basketball fans aren't smart enough to see all of this. There is not a single shred of evidence anywhere that Baylor has cheated unless you count a few text messages.
It's a really long post that culminates in him pretending a first round blowout loss to Purdue, missing the NCAA the next year and playing in an empty home arena is all you need to start having mostly 4* recruiting classes.
Also Hoiberg has to eclipse Drew's last decade plus in just 3 seasons. Beating Baylor 4 times out of 5 and finishing ahead of Baylor the last 2 of the last 3 seasons when Baylor had more talent...meaningless.
Also he fails to mention how an awesome coach misses the NCAA tounament with a Big 12 preseason player of the year and two other guys who are on NBA draft boards.
In summary, the guy somehow manages to out-sour-grapes football fans who just lost by 63. He's right that I am lucky he responded, his post was a hilarious and entertaining read.
Rebel, making an argument about Elite Eights without taking into account matchups is downright silly. Didn't Baylor lose to Kentucky who ISU also lost to in the same tournament? It's not ISU's fault that BU got easier matchups leading up to the same loss. That is just the luck of the draw. And for the record, ISU was much more competitive against that team than BU was.
Enjoy your NIT trophy and see yourself out.
Enjoy your NIT trophy and see yourself out.
You are a sad silly little man if you think that a 2 year investigation means nothing. Fact is they gave us as aggressive of a look as anyone gets and the worst they found is a text issue that even Hoiberg got dinged for.
Can Drew be an *** with posters on the recruiting trail? Sure.
Can his religious persona rub some the wrong way with his aggressive recruiting? Sure.
Has there been one bit of credible evidence of cheating? NO.
So terrible programs with zero fan support, with a coach who gets less from NBA-level talent, who gets out-coached in just about every game, these programs just start getting 4* and 5* players? That's horse **** and you know it.
I don't think we are talking UNC, Kentucky or Duke here. Just like with ISU I would guess Baylor would get smacked hard a again if they did anything wrong. I think the religious aspect of the school, definitely play a big role in them pulling some big time kids. Some people especially in the South take their religion pretty seriously, in all walks of their life. Each coach has an angle. Fred pitches is his NBA connections, and getting kids a shot at the next level. Every salesman has a pitch, if your coach doesn't he is gonna fail.
I still don't think Drew can coach worth a crap, especially in tight games, but sometimes talent can overcome bad coaching. And the fact that the NBA is already wooing Hoiberg, just speaks to his understanding of the game and what kind of skilled x's and o's guy he is.. Ask guys like Calapari or Pitino how hard it is to coach in the NBA.
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Surely you can acknowledge that the NCAA's investigative power is almost nil. You pretty much have to tell them you ****ed up.
The original post was not my own but two things:
A- According to Scout we landed ONE 4 star in 2008 and ONE four star in 2009. Hardly "having mostly 4* recruiting classes". After that you have an Elite 8 appearance, a top 5 draft pick to show we can get you to the league, and a very upward trajectory to aid in recruiting. Each was a Texas kid that we got in on early. Given that UT didn't really go after either it's not shocking that a team that had built from nothing to reach the NCAA's and then almost win the NIT could get 2 kids like that.
B: Why is BU going to have a quicker time of it once the ball gets rolling?
-Location plays a big role. Other than UT, name ONE elite program in Texas we would have competed with, and no A&M does not count. They were middling and we are easier to get to. TCU, UH, SMU, UNT, etc all were minor league, A&M and TT were not stable with coaching, and BU was able to win a lot of recruits from them. Texas produces a LOT of talent in hoops and having only UT as an elite program to recruit against in-state means that for kids who want to stay close to home we have a distinct advantage given where Tech and A&M were as programs and the joke conferences that TCU, SMU, Rice, and UH played in.
- Drew was able to get top 100 classes to Valpo when they had a similar profile to BU. Couple his ability to recruit with the hotbed of talent that surrounds Waco and a very fast turnaround and you have a reasonable expectation of good recruiting. BU had a distinct upward trajectory, a very good recruiter, and a great location to recruit from.
1- We DID NOT just start off getting 4* and 5* players. It took time and a clear turnaround in the program before that started happening and it took reaching the Elite 8 for it to pick up. False premises lead to bs conclusions.
2- Location and the lack of quality in-state programs (other than UT) helps. We are surrounded by talent and a school grabbing some of it when no clear #2 program is locally present isn't surprising.
Very accurate here, the NCAA would nuke us without blinking.
So because they didn't find anything we MUST be corrupt? Please.
I can go recruit by recruit but the nutshell of it is that Baylor had 5-6 years of expected recruiting (primarily 3 stars) and got lucky that a couple 4 stars fell to them due to big programs pursuing other players, failed player attempts to package with bigger names, and grade concerns. After we turned the program around it picked up and BU really was able to tap the Texas talent pool but not before.
