Kids playing football

[IAStubborn]

I'd grabbed some stats from several sites, but Headcasecompany.com was where I found that one - it's a grass-roots organization. I found some good stats from other sources just now, though- LINK LINK (Can't believe I linked Fox News.)

I couldn't find applicable stats for a wide range of ages for car accidents, which is why the info is different.

The short version is that saying things like, "I played and I am fine" are dangerous at best. When we know better, we do better - would anyone think of transporting a baby without a car seat these days? No. But there are people who say, "We didn't have car seats back in my day, and I'm just fine." Yeah, that's because the people who weren't fine aren't here to say so. We can improve this situation, and should. A little extra padding isn't sufficient with injuries on the rise.

Yes but we also need to keep digging deeper. We are a very reactive society including things like your example of car seats. There are studies that show rear facing car seats may cause more infant fatalities than they prevent (vs. Forward facing) because of babies left in the vehicles yet it is law of the land and now a big industry. We are collectively horrible at assessing risk. Two years ago on a similar thread I believe I was right there with you crusading against youth football. But the deeper I dug I realized it wasn't actually as concrete as I believed.

 

[Angie]

Yes but we also need to keep digging deeper. We are a very reactive society including things like your example of car seats. There are studies that show rear facing car seats may cause more infant fatalities than they prevent (vs. Forward facing) because of babies left in the vehicles yet it is law of the land and now a big industry. We are collectively horrible at assessing risk. Two years ago on a similar thread I believe I was right there with you crusading against youth football. But the deeper I dug I realized it wasn't actually as concrete as I believed.

I am on a ton of car seat forums and in discussions, and have not once seen rear-facing be blamed for parents leaving the children in cars. Do you have a link to a scientific source? I don't see how the direction the child is facing would matter in if they are forgotten; the loudness of the child, sure. However, there are numerous studies that show that rear-facing greatly reduces the risk of internal decapitation. I find this claim dubious at best.

 

[3TrueFans]

I am on a ton of car seat forums and in discussions, and have not once seen rear-facing be blamed for parents leaving the children in cars. Do you have a link to a scientific source?

Whoa, there's car seat forums?

 

[Angie]

Whoa, there's car seat forums?

Scads. Google CSFTL to start.

 

[carvers4math]

Yes but we also need to keep digging deeper. We are a very reactive society including things like your example of car seats. There are studies that show rear facing car seats may cause more infant fatalities than they prevent (vs. Forward facing) because of babies left in the vehicles yet it is law of the land and now a big industry. We are collectively horrible at assessing risk. Two years ago on a similar thread I believe I was right there with you crusading against youth football. But the deeper I dug I realized it wasn't actually as concrete as I believed.

You bring up a valid point about assessing risk. When my first child was born, to avoid SIDS you were supposed to lay them on their stomachs. By the second kid, it was on their sides, and they had special pillow things to keep them from rolling. Several babies down the line, it was on their backs and absolutely no pillows, blankets, bumpers etc. in the crib. As if you could ever get a baby to lie any of those ways all night unless you stay up all night and re-position them when they roll. All these studies and during my child bearing years, the expert opinion changed to literally every possibility.

 

[Angie]

You bring up a valid point about assessing risk. When my first child was born, to avoid SIDS you were supposed to lay them on their stomachs. By the second kid, it was on their sides, and they had special pillow things to keep them from rolling. Several babies down the line, it was on their backs and absolutely no pillows, blankets, bumpers etc. in the crib. As if you could ever get a baby to lie any of those ways all night unless you stay up all night and re-position them when they roll. All these studies and during my child bearing years, the expert opinion changed to literally every possibility.

I think that, though, is that we don't exactly know what causes SIDS. We do know what causes deaths in a car crash, or head injuries in football. I totally agree that baby stuff can change, but mostly only the unknowns.

 

[3TrueFans]

Scads. Google CSFTL to start.

Well I'll be damned, I just picked out the car seat that looked the coolest. Kidding of course, that was only part of the equation.

 

[IAStubborn]

We need to separate the risk of CTE/decreased cognitive function from concussions. All of the research I've seen indicates that REPEATED SUB-CONCUSSION LEVEL IMPACTS are what causes the lasting damage. The problem is head impacts much more than concussions. You can get concussions in almost any sport. But football is unique in the high frequency and severity of head impacts EVEN WHEN NO CONCUSSION OCCURS. And the further you are from the line of scrimmage, the lower your risk is.

Yes, concussions are bad. A friend of mine had his HS football career cut short because of one very serious concussion, and it took him over a year to fully recover. But over the long haul for the people who never have a concussion, the repeated blows to the head are what cause problems.

This is true and the data that I am most concerned about. Being a lineman is not something I would encourage in my kid because it may have lasting effects (despite the longitudinal data I agree we need more) and it very likely does if it is done over a career. Which to my point on Angie and the NFL, if I thought there was a chance my kid would do this for 20 years it would skew my risk to reward calculation the other way. I don't care if he could make a lot of money if there was a decent chance it would ruin his life. The way I see it now though is it has little chance of ruining his life and he really loves doing it. That's living. I don't want him to be safe in a bubble if it means he isn't doing the things he likes. My youngest loves climbing, a way more dangerous sport than any we are talking about and he is really really good at it, and I have succefully encouraged less dangerous ways but if he really wants to do it in the end of the day I will support him and try and mitigate the risks as much as I can.

 

[Angie]

Well I'll be damned, I just picked out the car seat that looked the coolest. Kidding of course, that was only part of the equation.

If you want that, go Clek Foonf. They are wicked expensive, but look like a rocket ship and are very safe.

 

[IAStubborn]

Many more millions ride in cars, and the number of times they ride in a car per year is much higher than the number of times they play football? I don't see your point.

Upthread people are talking about how many more teens are hurt in car accidents than they are in football. The number of exposures to driving/riding in a car dwarves playing football - yes, if you look at gross number of car crashes vs. football injuries in a year, of course the one number is bigger. But if you look at a granular level how many car accidents per exposure to a car there are vs. how many injuries there are vs. exposure to a football practice/game, football is worse.

Death > injury. You can't say football is more dangerous when the rate of death is that much higher. It is the trump card in my book.

 

[Angie]

Death > injury. You can't say football is more dangerous when the rate of death is that much higher. It is the trump card in my book.

So you don't care if your child plays with knives and gets stabbed, so long as they don't die?

 

[IAStubborn]

I am on a ton of car seat forums and in discussions, and have not once seen rear-facing be blamed for parents leaving the children in cars. Do you have a link to a scientific source? I don't see how the direction the child is facing would matter in if they are forgotten; the loudness of the child, sure. However, there are numerous studies that show that rear-facing greatly reduces the risk of internal decapitation. I find this claim dubious at best.

Not trying to make a car seat argument, just making the case we are often reactive. FreakOnmics was my source I believe on car seats, but will concede you likely know much more about it as I haven't dug that much into the subject.

 

[Tailg8er]

I'm just going to keep my mouth shut on this topic.

Wouldn't the world be such a better place if you decided to do this on all topics!








in regards to my prior

 

[19210]

Football causes degenerative brain injury, even in high school. Every hit takes a toll on the brain. There are links upthread and easily googled that verify that. If other parents want their children whose brains are still developing to be put at very increased risk for both single traumatic brain injuries and for sustained injuries caused by persistent, low-impact hits, that's their choice - but it's absolutely a fact that football is often harmful. 1/3 of NFL players have brain trauma: LINK. IMO, it's absolutely the same thing - we didn't have MRIs 50 years ago to know that football was injuring people to this degree and regularity, but now we do. Same with car seats - we know better, now we can do better.

Ok so everything we read on the internet is true? Ok Al Gore! :smile: Also, to say it's absolutely a FACT that football is harmful? There are thousands of players who have played the game that were unharmed. So I'm not sure what you are basing your facts on.

Something to keep in mind is that we are talking Youth football. I'd much rather have my son go out and try football at this age then go out in Middle School or High School where the kids are going to be bigger, faster, and stronger and have him show up the first day to only get demolished by some kid because it's my sons first day of playing the sport.

You keep talking about NFL players. Well that's a different caliber then Youth football. Sure there are going to be more violent collisions when you have two mammoths who can run 4.4 forty's slamming into each other on the line or tackling each other. The other thing is, I still see a lot of them not tackling or blocking correctly. They need to keep their heads UP!

A majority of the kids at this age with their equipment on aren't very fast or explosive. So the impact is very minimal. The big thing with our Youth Football team is that we are teaching the kids the fundamentals of football so they don't get hurt. We all have to be certified on HEADS UP tackling and blocking a program put together by the NFL and we preach this over and over from day one. We can't stress it enough. I know that most concussions at this age and even college are because the neck isn't strong enough. That's why Coach Yancy and Coach O stress the neck exercises so much. So will they be eliminated permanently no, there will always be that risk.

There are plenty of things you can do to minimize the risk of concussions at the Youth level and like some have said a lot of it starts and stops with the coaches. So do your research and find a good fit for them if they want to play. Go to the practices the year before your son is of age or is thinking about going out.

Girls soccer is, from what I've been told, the second most leading sport for high school concussions. So all of you with girls who think you are in the clear have something to think about as well.

End of rant, you can have your soapbox back!

 

[IAStubborn]

So you don't care if your child plays with knives and gets stabbed, so long as they don't die?

Come on, is that what I said? I just said when one thing kills you a lot and the other doesn't both may be dangerous but the one that kills you a lot is more dangerous. Long lasting injury with debilitating effects and death are most concerning to me. And yes football is more likely to injury your brain than most sports. I totally respect your opinion and felt the exact same way when my kids were your age, my opinion evolved with more facts and with my child's desires. Yours may or may not and I don't think you are anyway wrong nor I am right just explaining my thoughts on the matter.

 

[CloneinWDSM]

Wouldn't the world be such a better place if you decided to do this on all topics!








in regards to my prior

Don't make me start a thread about all those exotic animals your boss shoots and puts on display at work.

 

[carvers4math]

So you don't care if your child plays with knives and gets stabbed, so long as they don't die?

My boys had knives by middle school age. They come in handy when camping and fishing. They were also thoroughly taught how to use them.

I guess that is one issue I have with not letting the child have a role in the decision. Seen too many college kids with helicopter parents. Son knew a kid in his dorm whose mother called him every day at the appropriate time to get up. Kid never set an alarm at all. Same kid is now 21 and has never held any job. His parents tell him what classes to take, and pack and unpack all of his belongings for school, connect his internet when he moves in, etc. He's a nice young man but between him and his parents, he doesn't make many decisions on his own or even take responsibility for the small necessities of every day living.

My view of my job as a parent is to help my kids learn how to make good decisions on their own. When they become teenagers, you start having to let go a bit so that when they go off on their own, they can function. Helicopter parents aren't doing their kids any favors.

 

[IAStubborn]

My boys had knives by middle school age. They come in handy when camping and fishing. They were also thoroughly taught how to use them.

I guess that is one issue I have with not letting the child have a role in the decision. Seen too many college kids with helicopter parents. Son knew a kid in his dorm whose mother called him every day at the appropriate time to get up. Kid never set an alarm at all. Same kid is now 21 and has never held any job. His parents tell him what classes to take, and pack and unpack all of his belongings for school, connect his internet when he moves in, etc. He's a nice young man but between him and his parents, he doesn't make many decisions on his own or even take responsibility for the small necessities of every day living.

My view of my job as a parent is to help my kids learn how to make good decisions on their own. When they become teenagers, you start having to let go a bit so that when they go off on their own, they can function. Helicopter parents aren't doing their kids any favors.

I think this is the bigger picture point this discussion has been lacking.

 

[IAStubborn]

http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/well/2015/08/24/concussions-can-occur-in-all-youth-sports/?em_pos=small&emc=edit_hh_20150825&nl=health&nlid=16661185&ref=headline&_r=1&referrer=this was what I though was a good article on the subject that gives a balanced view of the risks that ran a couple days ago in the NYT. My take, all sports do pose risk and we need to mitigate those risks, but not eliminate particaption in doing so because ultimately the benifits in playing youth sports far outweigh the risk.

 

[besserheimerphat]

Ok so everything we read on the internet is true? Ok Al Gore! :smile: Also, to say it's absolutely a FACT that football is harmful? There are thousands of players who have played the game that were unharmed. So I'm not sure what you are basing your facts on.

Do you consider early onset of dementia, cognitive degeneration or depression "unharmed?" Those are the issues we're talking about - not a single concussion.

Something to keep in mind is that we are talking Youth football. I'd much rather have my son go out and try football at this age then go out in Middle School or High School where the kids are going to be bigger, faster, and stronger and have him show up the first day to only get demolished by some kid because it's my sons first day of playing the sport.

This is just wrong. There is a large amount of data taken during youth tackle football games that show concretely that young players experience larger accelerations of the head, and therefore higher impact forces between the brain and inner skull, than kids in junior high and high school.

You keep talking about NFL players. Well that's a different caliber then Youth football. Sure there are going to be more violent collisions when you have two mammoths who can run 4.4 forty's slamming into each other on the line or tackling each other. The other thing is, I still see a lot of them not tackling or blocking correctly. They need to keep their heads UP!

A majority of the kids at this age with their equipment on aren't very fast or explosive. So the impact is very minimal. The big thing with our Youth Football team is that we are teaching the kids the fundamentals of football so they don't get hurt. We all have to be certified on HEADS UP tackling and blocking a program put together by the NFL and we preach this over and over from day one. We can't stress it enough. I know that most concussions at this age and even college are because the neck isn't strong enough. That's why Coach Yancy and Coach O stress the neck exercises so much. So will they be eliminated permanently no, there will always be that risk.

Yes, heads up tackling and increased neck strength all do wonders to reduce spinal compression and concussion. But it doesn't stop the brain from sloshing around inside the skull during a collision. And the repeated bashing of brain against bone, even if no other acute injury occurs, can start the process of chronic brain injury.

There are plenty of things you can do to minimize the risk of concussions at the Youth level and like some have said a lot of it starts and stops with the coaches. So do your research and find a good fit for them if they want to play. Go to the practices the year before your son is of age or is thinking about going out.

You are absolutely right, coaching is very important. But the younger the players are, the less well trained and informed the coaches are. It's just a fact. I saw this as a former junior high football coach. So parents have to put a lot of trust into their child's coach that they will keep the child safe.

Girls soccer is, from what I've been told, the second most leading sport for high school concussions. So all of you with girls who think you are in the clear have something to think about as well.

End of rant, you can have your soapbox back!

And due to the high incidence of concussions, youth girls soccer leagues around the country are considering making heading the ball illegal until a certain age to prevent injury. But you're right, I do think about that for my three daughters.