Referees

[majorcyfan]

I'm almost sure the Big 12 has a list of approved crews who can be used for games (hell, even most of the high school conferences in Iowa have them). They do multiple conferences because of travel limitations. I have my doubts a lot of referees do Big East games and Big 12 games, but there are a handful who do Missouri Valley/Big 12 games because the footprints are about the same and flights are reasonable.

And NCAA referees are not underpaid. How many jobs have you had where you can make about $700 in about 3 hours with travel costs and food paid for? The guys who ref three or four nights per week are making $40,000 in four months. Some of them work jobs on the side as consultants or salespeople but the majority make a very good living.

I personally know because I know a couple guys who do college games for a living. You seem to be missing a couple big points:
a) what you can see isn't necessarily what a referee can see. Ref zones don't overlap much so if you have a 6'5" 220 lb guy in front of you screening you, you can't make a call. Officiating is a hell of a lot easier sitting in the stands where you can see over everyone than it is on the floor where everyone is as tall if not taller than you are.
b) you get to see the replay. That's part of why people think officiating is worse. It isn't worse, you just get to watch on TV and see replays or rewind your DVR.

The referees do have to justify their calls. There is someone in the conference office whose job is to watch every game and they conference call the referees involved in the game to correct any mechanical errors which may have been made and they have the opportunity to answer why they didn't make certain calls.

Application of some common sense would be useful here. Do you really think the Big 12 Conference assigns referees and just says, "here's your check guys, best of luck!" How many jobs do you know of where there aren't performance reviews? Come on.

Southeast corner of the parquet is where the people who review ther referees normally sit........ see the tables set up there, not for you and me to sit at.

 

[BCClone]

I didn't know they made that much. I keep thinking football where you would only get a dozen games, still 40k cash is not a solid wage for living.

 

[Rick]

I didn't see the play but I'm a little surprised people are ******** about a call the refs got RIGHT because the person who called it wasn't who they expected to call it.

Officials have very specific areas of the court they are responsible for covering. However, in college officiating mechanics, if a drive starts at the top of the key the trail (you refer to him as the outside official) takes the drive all the way to the hole. In other words if the drive starts in front of the trail official and ends in a block charge right in front of the lead official, it is still the trail official's call.

High school mechanics are slightly different. The call goes to the official the play is moving toward. Some might say that makes more sense but I suppose you would have to ask someone who works both high school and college which they prefer and why.

That does make sense and I appreciate the feed back. I just couldn't understand how this guy could not make the call. He was staring right at the play. Not looking elsewhere but right at it. That's what irked me the most.

 

[ajk4st8]

I have read many of your posts here, and respect your knowledge of the rules. I, too, have done some officiating, and you are right that many folks dont know the rules. But there is one area that NCAA BB officials consistently misjudge.

In the rules under establishing legal guarding position, the last item listed is that the defensive player must establish his legal guarding position before the opponent, if airborne, either with or without the ball, leaves the floor. On a very regular basis, officials call the foul on the offensive player when the guarding position was not established until after the offensive player left the floor.

The rule clearly does not state that legal guarding position can be established up until contact is made, but this is how the rule is routinely applied.

well said.

I absolutely hate the "Charging" call. An offensive foul should be called when an offensive player goes bowling into the defender.

I do NOT think a defender should be able to slide in front of an offensive player, intentionally plant both feet and attempt to draw a foul. Nothing makes the game worse than guys trying to draw charges everywhere.

 

[Rick]

Prefer collegiate and it isn't even close, especially if I'm working with a crew I'm not 100% familiar with. The transition from one official to the other can lead to a missed call because I assume my partner started watching when the driving player reached the elbow and my partner didn't start until they were 8' away and we missed a hold/reach.

Um, there is. They conference call the conference office and review tapes occasionally. Again, what you see on TV is not what is necessarily seen by them live. You also have the benefit of seeing the call 4 different times from different angles on replays. You don't have to make a split second decision whether to blow your whistle or not.

I'm just going to leave it at this: You're wrong.

This.


No it hasn't. It's been the exact same it has been every other year. Missed calls happen and have been happening as long as there have been officials.

Your point on fouls being equal however is accurate. The problem with what you're saying is that we're going to throw up more threes than our opponents most of the time and take less highly contested shots in the lane (thereby decreasing the amount of fouls we call). However, you're flat out wrong, the game was well officiated. The officials were consistent from start to finish. Just because there is body contact does NOT mean there is a foul. Our guys (looking at Ejim and Royce) have a tendency to jump into a defender who is jumping straight up in the air which isn't a foul. There is body contact but the defender has established initial legal guarding position, giving them the right to the space they're occupying as well as verticality.

And of course you think Iowa State never gets calls. Every official is out to get Iowa State. It isn't like you're biased or anything. Every game both teams get away with some and they get jobbed on others.

I understand what you wrote but I disagree on the jumping into the player not being called a foul. I see it all the time where a player leaves his feet and the other player leans into him and gets free throws. I hate this call and wish they would call it like you described but more often than not if the guy can jump into a player off the ground he gets the foul. I will watch more closely but it's either inconsistent or misunderstood.

 

[VeloClone]

I understand what you wrote but I disagree on the jumping into the player not being called a foul. I see it all the time where a player leaves his feet and the other player leans into him and gets free throws. I hate this call and wish they would call it like you described but more often than not if the guy can jump into a player off the ground he gets the foul. I will watch more closely but it's either inconsistent or misunderstood.

I shouldn't get FT's for that?

Signed,

Keiton Page

 

[ruxCYtable]

the defensive player must establish his legal guarding position before the opponent, if airborne, either with or without the ball, leaves the floor.

You are 100% correct about this and it is precisely why the infamous 2000 BLARGE SHOULD have been a block. At the point of contact the defender was there, straight up and absorbed the hit. The problem was, replay clearly showed he got there after Paul Shirley left his feet.

It is an incredibly difficult call to make at game speed but I will tell you word-for-word what Rick Hartzell said at a camp I attended:

"I don't care about feet moving or if the offensive player is in the air or what. If the contact occurs chest-to-chest, it's a charge and we're going the other way. Will I be right 100% of the time? No, but I'll be consistent, I'll be right 98% of the time, and 98% is good enough."

Like it or not, that is what he said and what his philosophy is and I think a lot of college officials do it that way.

 

[Rick]

Exactly the player I was thinking about. He did that twice if not three times and I kept telling my wife that shouldnt be a foul. Maybe I was right?

 

[RolandRocket]

You are 100% correct about this and it is precisely why the infamous 2000 BLARGE SHOULD have been a block. At the point of contact the defender was there, straight up and absorbed the hit. The problem was, replay clearly showed he got there after Paul Shirley left his feet.

It is an incredibly difficult call to make at game speed but I will tell you word-for-word what Rick Hartzell said at a camp I attended:

"I don't care about feet moving or if the offensive player is in the air or what. If the contact occurs chest-to-chest, it's a charge and we're going the other way. Will I be right 100% of the time? No, but I'll be consistent, I'll be right 98% of the time, and 98% is good enough."

Like it or not, that is what he said and what his philosophy is and I think a lot of college officials do it that way.

If that is the case, and the "supervisors" of the officials need to make it a point of emphasis that the rule be called as written, and not just how an official like Hartzell chooses to interpret it. No official in any sport should have the right to make up the rules to what he thinks they should be, and that is exactly what Hartzell said he was doing in that case.

 

[acrozier22]

Why would I assume that? Because the process isn't transparent. How do you know what they do after a game? They volunteered to take the position. They get paid to do a job. Just because it is a "tough gig" doesn't mean they shouldn't have take accountability for their job performance. This isn't referring to those refs who officiate ISU games, but officiating in general. I agree, they are usually the most hated people in the arena, and usually for unjust/incorrect/wrong reasons. But when I see a call that is blatantly wrong(and confirmed when I see a replay or two of it) I would LOVE to see a ref justify their call.

Obviously you can't read. I said, I know a few college refs and they DO review game tapes. Heck, most really good high school refs will review game tapes to improve.

Officials are accountable to conference commissioners, assigners, and to their partners (nobody wants to work with someone who is bad).

You need to get the picture that sometimes they miss calls, even blatant calls. Like I mentioned the first time, get your *** on a court, put the stripes on, put the whistle in your mouth and let's see how you do. Since it's so damn easy, you should be the next Ed Hightower.

 

[IcSyU]

Exactly the player I was thinking about. He did that twice if not three times and I kept telling my wife that shouldnt be a foul. Maybe I was right?

If and only if the defender stayed totally vertical. It gets completely awful when a player drives the baseline, the defender gets position and pins the dribbler behind the backboard, then the dribbler jumps into the defender to attempt a layup and gets a whistle for a body foul. That's either a no-call or an offensive foul, not a blocking foul. Another one is offensive players bending over and clearing space with their shoulder then going up for a lay in. Offensive foul.

If that is the case, and the "supervisors" of the officials need to make it a point of emphasis that the rule be called as written, and not just how an official like Hartzell chooses to interpret it. No official in any sport should have the right to make up the rules to what he thinks they should be, and that is exactly what Hartzell said he was doing in that case.

Every rule is an interpretation by officials. What I think is a hand check isn't going to be the same thing as another ref. And if the contact is chest to chest, chances are very high the defender beat the offensive player to the spot as an offensive player is going to be preparing to jump. If it's as the player is coming down that's a different story.

 

[ruxCYtable]

If that is the case, and the "supervisors" of the officials need to make it a point of emphasis that the rule be called as written, and not just how an official like Hartzell chooses to interpret it. No official in any sport should have the right to make up the rules to what he thinks they should be, and that is exactly what Hartzell said he was doing in that case.

Making something a point of emphasis isn't going to make it easier to call. Everyone has to come up with "absolutes" and "rules of thumb" that work for them.

As for me, I actually adopted the Hartzell method and it has worked very well for me. If I'm wrong (according to RH's theory) on 2% of block/charges because of it, and maybe half those 2% of coaches ***** about it, therefore, I have to admit I might have been wrong 1% of the time...I can live with that.

 

[rebecacy]

******** about the refs is a waste of time. We can change nothing there.

 

[cyatheart]

The Baylor game was easier to officiate than many of our games, you had one team being very passive, soft and not being agressive, and one team that was being agressive. Those games are a lot easier to officiate than say or game with K State.

 

[Madclone1]

Obviously you can't read. I said, I know a few college refs and they DO review game tapes. Heck, most really good high school refs will review game tapes to improve.

Officials are accountable to conference commissioners, assigners, and to their partners (nobody wants to work with someone who is bad).

You need to get the picture that sometimes they miss calls, even blatant calls. Like I mentioned the first time, get your *** on a court, put the stripes on, put the whistle in your mouth and let's see how you do. Since it's so damn easy, you should be the next Ed Hightower.

You are being facetious . . correct? Ed Hightower is re known for ticky tack calls and inserting himself into the flow of the game.

 

[rebecacy]

Ed Hightower always graded out as a top ref. I did disagree with a few of his big game calls however.

 

[Rick]

I dont like Hightower. Always felt he gave too much to the favorite team.