Williams & Blum: The Monday after

jsb

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I'm sorry I just can't get onboard with this. #1 We watch the games. Is there anything about what we saw in Maui or the non-conference that made you believe this wasn't a group that could get to the Elite 8 or the Final 4. Chatfield was playing good minutes off the bench. Heise was defending well. There was not a better backcourt in the country then Gilbert, Jones and Lipsey and then you had Jackson in the post averaging double-digits and Jefferson averaging 12-13 point and distributing from the 4 spot. Plus Milan who was averaging double-digits as well. You were 9 deep out in Maui with Chatfield playing 43 minutes (14 minutes a game) and Nojus playing 30 minutes (10 minutes a game).

This team beat Marquette by double digits, won at a rival in Iowa when they didn't have their best stuff were a half court heave from being 18-2 and 8-1 in the conference on January 27th.

There was not a single major sign that things would/could go sideways until Milan's broken finger, then Jones, then Gilbert and then Lipsey injuries.

Sure they were contributing to it but the hype/expectations were absolutely realistic at the time. After the Gilbert/Jones not playing at Houston and Gilbert not playing at Oklahoma State (February 25th) you didn't hear much about the Final 4 or Elite 8 unless it came with the caveat of "getting healthy."

No one is saying that the hype wasn't realistic. But part of that hype is people aren't always rationale. So when the injuries and illness hit, it's easy to not take that into account. This site is Cyclone FANATIC. Fanatics aren't always logical. And as soon as we started losing a few games, the talk was kind of "how stupid are the fans that expect them to be a Final 4 team?"
 

Cycsk

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Basketball, like most sports, comes down to playing the actual game.

Many of us sound like getting trounced by them was inevitable, but I think we could have won if we played them again.

What would we be saying if we had won the Mississippi game? I suspect that it would be a much different tone.
 

FinalFourCy

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No need to be an ass. We were #2 in the country before the injury bug hit. Losing what Gilbert did at both ends of the floor really changed us. Plus you throw in Milan and Tamin’s injuries were out in the second round not having Gilbert and a diminished Lipsey. Those two were the tip of the sword on the defensive end.

He’s not being an ass. He’s pointing out how idiotic is to resort to claiming false authority in this discussion
 

LtRaczack

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They weren't beat up and gassed last season as a 2 that dominated the Big 12 tourney and simply flinched vs. Illinois in a close loss.

And I'm not sure how the injuries are related to exhaustion since they've not really been an issue prior with teams with less depth.
Not scoring for about eight minutes in the first half and trailing the entire game is simply flinching....interesting assessment.
 

isucy86

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I question the need to have two versions of Jackson and Chatfield on one team. I’m actually going to come out and say no one should have two 0% 3 point shooters on one team getting regular minutes. Especially if neither are a rim protector.

One version of a junk guy like Chatfield is fine and should come cheap. They need a starting 5 who can space the floor imo. Have the guards rebound better to help with any loss in physicality (Heise and Lipsey are capable).

Not a TJ hater, but I think he was off during those in-game buddies “just be more physical!”. Uh TJ these teams are shooting 50-60% from 3. Need to guard the 3-point line and score, not bump and bruise your way to victory

Agree with your take on the Jackson/Chatfield combo. In hindsight having two similar players probably wasn't a good idea. But the portal is the speed-dating version of recruiting, so a coaching staff is limited in options and time. Plus NIL budget is a further limiting factor.

I would disagree on ISU needing a 5 who can stretch the floor. There's only so much space out on the 3 point line and if a team has 3 or 4 guys on the perimeter, someone has to be under the basket to get offensive rebounds. Sure guards are needed to rebound, but they are mid-range rebounders who have quickness to get long rebounds.
 

CycloneSpinning

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There’s a lot here that’s kind of new/not easy to navigate.

Reasonable people have always said it’s not fair to student athletes to ask/say some of the things that were said about Gilbert…Jackson to some extent…even others. They’re kids…and they don’t get paid.

But now they do get paid…and sometimes more than we do (for some of us maybe even a lot more). So now is it fair?

But maybe it’s not smart…because we could have cost ourselves an extra $200k (or whatever) in NIL by speaking out…and maybe we lost a guy. But if you’re getting paid and you like playing in front of a passionate fanbase, do you need to just deal with that? You probably have to in the NBA…

And we had hopes/expectations that weren’t met. Some of it might have been because guys just got injured. That’s life/sports. There could be load management issues. Maybe if TJ plays the 10/11…you have better bench development/engagement…and fewer injuries. Maybe not. Are we allowed to ask those questions? Do we scare away our players or coach…or cost ourselves more NIL money by being fans/asking questions?

Fans no doubt have to be respectful…and we shouldn’t assume what we say has no consequences anymore than we would making comments in other area of life. I suspect though that players are going to need to toughen up a bit and show some discretion on whether they go online and read comment boards. That’s just a good life skill that they’re going to need going forward…and while perhaps it’s not fair for fans to get after a guy (especially when there are always things we don’t know), it’s also not fair for a player to perhaps collect hundreds of thousands of dollars and not hold himself accountable for doing what he needs to do to physical and mentally find a way to finish a season. Is that fair for a 20 year old? Probably not. But it also doesn’t make the most sense that they’re making the kind of money they are…yet that’s where we find ourselves.

Oh - and I don’t hold Chris or Brent accountable for expectations anymore than I do my friends. They’re fans with a a microphone. I’m sure they feel a responsibility as professionals…but I listen because I enjoy their opinions/it’s entertaining. They’re good at talking.
 

Raiders70

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Basketball, like most sports, comes down to playing the actual game.

Many of us sound like getting trounced by them was inevitable, but I think we could have won if we played them again.

What would we be saying if we had won the Mississippi game? I suspect that it would be a much different tone.
We could have won but without Gilbert and Tamin hurt we probably beat them 2 out of 10 times.
 

AuH2O

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It'd be nice if this podcast could at least acknowledge the role they played in leading the charge on the hype/expectations all last offseason and during the hot start at the beginning of the season. To now listen to them discuss all that in the passive voice, as if they were just witnesses to it rather than primary contributors, is disappointing.

It isn't their fault that the team didn't meet expectations, but we were wildly misled on the team's depth and development.
Prior to Gilbert injuring his groin, this team was a national title contender. It wasn't hype. It wasn't local homers creating the hype train, it was everybody nationally as well seeing reality.

It didn't pan out, but it wasn't like the team was smoke and mirrors. The guy that was at the time their best player and on track to be a 1st team AA getting injured and never recovering.

Throw in the other injuries to Tamin and MM, and the season was cooked.
 

cyclonehomer

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Prior to Gilbert injuring his groin, this team was a national title contender. It wasn't hype. It wasn't local homers creating the hype train, it was everybody nationally as well seeing reality.

It didn't pan out, but it wasn't like the team was smoke and mirrors. The guy that was at the time their best player and on track to be a 1st team AA getting injured and never recovering.

Throw in the other injuries to Tamin and MM, and the season was cooked.
Don't forget CuJo getting sick and that taking the wind out of his sails for a couple weeks, too.
 

ScottyP

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There were multiple basketball analysts that mentioned Iowa State looked like a final four team. The analytics also backed that up earlier in the season as well. No need to rip on CW or Blum for having the same thoughts as many so called "experts" in the college basketball media world.

Once Tamin got hurt and we knew Keshon was out, everybody had to adjust their expectations. Most people mentioned that they thought the ceiling for this team at that point was the Sweet Sixteen. Sure, it was disappointing, but that is sports. We were always going to be bummed once the team lost. Every team but the champion was going end the season with a loss.
 

MTCyclone43

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I keep thinking what a missed opportunity that Dwayne Pierce missed out on. Having another PG on the roster this year would have allowed us to rest Tamin / KG and hopefully got them healthy. As a true freshman - getting that type of opportunity on a top 5 program - that could have been the difference.

My guess is TJ was trying to keep us alive to better our seed to give us the best chance at making a run while hoping KG got healthy. If we rest KG - we're probably a 9 seed or worse and have a much harder time getting out of the first round/weekend.
Dewayne Pierce was the player that bolted after less than a week of summer workouts-correct?
 
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Die4Cy

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There’s a lot here that’s kind of new/not easy to navigate.

Reasonable people have always said it’s not fair to student athletes to ask/say some of the things that were said about Gilbert…Jackson to some extent…even others. They’re kids…and they don’t get paid.

But now they do get paid…and sometimes more than we do (for some of us maybe even a lot more). So now is it fair?

But maybe it’s not smart…because we could have cost ourselves an extra $200k (or whatever) in NIL by speaking out…and maybe we lost a guy. But if you’re getting paid and you like playing in front of a passionate fanbase, do you need to just deal with that? You probably have to in the NBA…

And we had hopes/expectations that weren’t met. Some of it might have been because guys just got injured. That’s life/sports. There could be load management issues. Maybe if TJ plays the 10/11…you have better bench development/engagement…and fewer injuries. Maybe not. Are we allowed to ask those questions? Do we scare away our players or coach…or cost ourselves more NIL money by being fans/asking questions?

Fans no doubt have to be respectful…and we shouldn’t assume what we say has no consequences anymore than we would making comments in other area of life. I suspect though that players are going to need to toughen up a bit and show some discretion on whether they go online and read comment boards. That’s just a good life skill that they’re going to need going forward…and while perhaps it’s not fair for fans to get after a guy (especially when there are always things we don’t know), it’s also not fair for a player to perhaps collect hundreds of thousands of dollars and not hold himself accountable for doing what he needs to do to physical and mentally find a way to finish a season. Is that fair for a 20 year old? Probably not. But it also doesn’t make the most sense that they’re making the kind of money they are…yet that’s where we find ourselves.

Oh - and I don’t hold Chris or Brent accountable for expectations anymore than I do my friends. They’re fans with a a microphone. I’m sure they feel a responsibility as professionals…but I listen because I enjoy their opinions/it’s entertaining. They’re good at talking.
The toxic mix of online betting, social media allowing direct access to players, and now players being paid to perform is what got us here. This is fairly new but everyone is going to need to grow up a little bit, including players who need to develop the wisdom to handle these things more as professionals would.
 

Cycsk

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We could have won but without Gilbert and Tamin hurt we probably beat them 2 out of 10 times.

And imagine how different the conversation would be if we won! We would still be the same team.