Volvo Going Electric/Online Only By 2030

[Tailg8er]

Correct. Which is still less than the average price of a new car in the US in 2021.

Cool - now take out SUVs/Pickups from the average.

 

[dmclone]

I'd feel pretty dumb right now if I had sprung for the $10k self driving option on the Tesla. I've watched other videos where it did great but wow it struggled here

 

[usedcarguy]

The DC chargers are the chargers of the future. Charges with some DC chargers could now be in the range of a 100 mile charge in as little as 5 minutes so a full charge could be around 15 minutes. They aren't finished improving on this technology either. If you can plug in your vehicle and go inside and go to the restroom, collect your snacks and go to the register to pay for charge and snacks instead of waiting by a gas pump before you go inside the time spent to fuel your vehicle may soon be equal between fossil fuels and electric for many stops.

Also, some of the conversation about renewable energy not being available when we are charging can be moot if we are thinking creatively. The Jerry Haaf parking ramp in downtown Minneapolis has a solar array on the roof top that both feeds the grid and powers EV charging stations. It is suspended over the top of the ramp so no spaces were lost in installing the array and since this is a workday destination people can charge their vehicles during their work day when the sun is generally shining.

IMO very few understand the physical challenges of mass adaptation. Surprisingly, battery technology is not the biggest challenge. It's production capacity, grid capacity, raw materials, and grid management. While it would be great to have a battery that can fast charge without degradation, fast charging increases exponentially what's needed for both grid and production capacity. Throw in weather events like the recent one that crippled the south, and it creates all the makings of a disaster.

Those who believe in the future of EVs fall into one of two camps. One is the CO2 haters who see this as a solution to the problem, and the other being those focused on the performance/economic/geopolitical prospects of an alternative.

For those whose focus is CO2 emissions, they are going to be greatly disappointed in the outcome. They can build all the windmills and solar panels they want, and it's not going to matter, regardless of how creatively we think. The math simply doesn't work. Unless we go to nuclear, (something else they hate) we will have no choice but to continue to burn carbon based fuels. And for those who say the workaround is storage...via the use of batteries or something else, my response would be to ask with what materials and more importantly at what cost. It's one thing to create an hour's worth of backup, but what about 3 days? And what would that actually cost? Those who have done the analysis know it's a pipe dream.

I suspect that recapturing carbon dioxide would provide a higher ROI than trying to run a grid largely reliant on wind and solar, and I also suspect that our current investment in that technology will only increase the likelihood...eventually getting to the point that we can produce baseload electricity with coal competitively and without increasing CO2 pollution. Imagine that....an evolution to EVs that has nothing to do with CO2 pollution!

 

[usedcarguy]

Correct. Which is still less than the average price of a new car in the US in 2021.

Apples to apples, it's actually about $5k more. More torque than most competitors, but with a lower range and unimpressive build quality. You can buy a lot of gas with the difference.

 

[cyfan92]

I'd rather have an arm amputated than drive in a major metro everyday... Regardless of self driving or human driving... That's why people walk/cycle/use transit

 

[VeloClone]

IMO very few understand the physical challenges of mass adaptation. Surprisingly, battery technology is not the biggest challenge. It's production capacity, grid capacity, raw materials, and grid management. While it would be great to have a battery that can fast charge without degradation, fast charging increases exponentially what's needed for both grid and production capacity. Throw in weather events like the recent one that crippled the south, and it creates all the makings of a disaster.

Those who believe in the future of EVs fall into one of two camps. One is the CO2 haters who see this as a solution to the problem, and the other being those focused on the performance/economic/geopolitical prospects of an alternative.

For those whose focus is CO2 emissions, they are going to be greatly disappointed in the outcome. They can build all the windmills and solar panels they want, and it's not going to matter, regardless of how creatively we think. The math simply doesn't work. Unless we go to nuclear, (something else they hate) we will have no choice but to continue to burn carbon based fuels. And for those who say the workaround is storage...via the use of batteries or something else, my response would be to ask with what materials and more importantly at what cost. It's one thing to create an hour's worth of backup, but what about 3 days? And what would that actually cost? Those who have done the analysis know it's a pipe dream.

I suspect that recapturing carbon dioxide would provide a higher ROI than trying to run a grid largely reliant on wind and solar, and I also suspect that our current investment in that technology will only increase the likelihood...eventually getting to the point that we can produce baseload electricity with coal competitively and without increasing CO2 pollution. Imagine that....an evolution to EVs that has nothing to do with CO2 pollution!

Realistically we don't have to eliminate burning of fossil fuels to positively change our CO2 situation. We simply need renewable energy to reduce reliance on them, not eliminate it. Natural gas is better for the on again/off again fueling of spiking demand while renewables ebb and flow. Renewables are not a panacea, but neither are carbon based fuels. A smart solution uses them all to create solution that utilizes the strengths of each.

 

[Sigmapolis]

IMO very few understand the physical challenges of mass adaptation. Surprisingly, battery technology is not the biggest challenge. It's production capacity, grid capacity, raw materials, and grid management. While it would be great to have a battery that can fast charge without degradation, fast charging increases exponentially what's needed for both grid and production capacity. Throw in weather events like the recent one that crippled the south, and it creates all the makings of a disaster.

Those who believe in the future of EVs fall into one of two camps. One is the CO2 haters who see this as a solution to the problem, and the other being those focused on the performance/economic/geopolitical prospects of an alternative.

For those whose focus is CO2 emissions, they are going to be greatly disappointed in the outcome. They can build all the windmills and solar panels they want, and it's not going to matter, regardless of how creatively we think. The math simply doesn't work. Unless we go to nuclear, (something else they hate) we will have no choice but to continue to burn carbon based fuels. And for those who say the workaround is storage...via the use of batteries or something else, my response would be to ask with what materials and more importantly at what cost. It's one thing to create an hour's worth of backup, but what about 3 days? And what would that actually cost? Those who have done the analysis know it's a pipe dream.

I suspect that recapturing carbon dioxide would provide a higher ROI than trying to run a grid largely reliant on wind and solar, and I also suspect that our current investment in that technology will only increase the likelihood...eventually getting to the point that we can produce baseload electricity with coal competitively and without increasing CO2 pollution. Imagine that....an evolution to EVs that has nothing to do with CO2 pollution!

@usedcarguy, you know I like you, but I do wonder if you're a little pessimistic on some of this.

Every MWh you generate off wind or solar is one you don't need to generate off gas or coal. Yes, you might have to keep the gas and coal around for capacity reasons (and maintaining a bunch of capacity that is "off" most of the time is expensive/pretty inefficient), but let's not act like the renewables have no impact on emissions.

A gas plant turned off doesn't emit until those few peak hours you need it. The rest of the year, the wind can do just fine, and every hour it is off is a savings on the emissions side (even if you still need to pay for it).

We also don't know what storage technology is going to look like in future decades -- utility-scale and distributed battery storage? Some sort of mechanical/inertia storage, some known or unknown type of chemical storage (e.g., hydrogen electrolysis), or some sort of heat sink that can be retrieved later? We just don't know. Imagine how people in 1935 felt looking at 1975 and the way those people felt looking at the technology we have now.

Direct air capture is a pretty immature technology, but it is another potential contributor.

There is a budding CCUS industry in the U.S., complete with a pipeline network being setup. Not an engineer here, but evidently carbon dioxide has industrial applications if you can capture, store, and ship a pure source.

I sympathize with the "climate warriors," but I agree with you some of their "green purity" stands in the way of their highest goals. I'd be perfectly fine with massive deployment of nuclear reactors (either utility-scale ones that we have now or modular reactors about the size of a shipping container and only putting out maybe 500 MW). I'd also be perfectly fine with coal or gas assuming you could capture and recycle the CO2. Both are just expensive (right now).

There are potential technical pathways there. None of us just know which one it will be.

 

[HFCS]

Just took the half-way plunge with a PHEV. Came with full tank of gas and after 9 days still has full tank of gas even with only a 17 mile pure EV range, gas is average $4.30 for 87 in my area. I have to make an 80 mile commute once or twice weekly (that I've yet to do) so I'm sure use some gas on those days, but it's a good mileage car in hybrid mode too. I have one big mountain I drive over in an otherwise flat drive so excited to see what it does to save my battery charge for going up those inclines rather than hit that mountain after 25 miles and already drained.

My city has a $500 credit to install a fast charger but because it only takes 5 hours to fully charge with teh slow charger I doubt I'll do it until I get a pure EV, probably my next car. I get carpool lane with one person but I barely drive in carpool lane areas. I have it timed to charge at 1am and in the process of getting on electrical plan with discount for use at night vs day.

 

[simply1]

Just took the half-way plunge with a PHEV. Came with full tank of gas and after 9 days still has full tank of gas even with only a 17 mile pure EV range, gas is average $4.30 for 87 in my area. I have to make an 80 mile commute once or twice weekly (that I've yet to do) so I'm sure use some gas on those days, but it's a good mileage car in hybrid mode too. I have one big mountain I drive over in an otherwise flat drive so excited to see what it does to save my battery charge for going up those inclines rather than hit that mountain after 25 miles and already drained.

My city has a $500 credit to install a fast charger but because it only takes 5 hours to fully charge with teh slow charger I doubt I'll do it until I get a pure EV, probably my next car. I get carpool lane with one person but I barely drive in carpool lane areas. I have it timed to charge at 1am and in the process of getting on electrical plan with discount for use at night vs day.

If that $12500 credit passes, you’ll wish you waited!
What did you get?

 

[HFCS]

@usedcarguy, you know I like you, but I do wonder if you're a little pessimistic on some of this.

Every MWh you generate off wind or solar is one you don't need to generate off gas or coal. Yes, you might have to keep the gas and coal around for capacity reasons (and maintaining a bunch of capacity that is "off" most of the time is expensive/pretty inefficient), but let's not act like the renewables have no impact on emissions.

A gas plant turned off doesn't emit until those few peak hours you need it. The rest of the year, the wind can do just fine, and every hour it is off is a savings on the emissions side (even if you still need to pay for it).

We also don't know what storage technology is going to look like in future decades -- utility-scale and distributed battery storage? Some sort of mechanical/inertia storage, some known or unknown type of chemical storage (e.g., hydrogen electrolysis), or some sort of heat sink that can be retrieved later? We just don't know. Imagine how people in 1935 felt looking at 1975 and the way those people felt looking at the technology we have now.

Direct air capture is a pretty immature technology, but it is another potential contributor.

There is a budding CCUS industry in the U.S., complete with a pipeline network being setup. Not an engineer here, but evidently carbon dioxide has industrial applications if you can capture, store, and ship a pure source.

I sympathize with the "climate warriors," but I agree with you some of their "green purity" stands in the way of their highest goals. I'd be perfectly fine with massive deployment of nuclear reactors (either utility-scale ones that we have now or modular reactors about the size of a shipping container and only putting out maybe 500 MW). I'd also be perfectly fine with coal or gas assuming you could capture and recycle the CO2. Both are just expensive (right now).

There are potential technical pathways there. None of us just know which one it will be.

I've been driving on EV for 9 days now because my PHEV hasn't needed to go further than EV range since I've had it.

30% of my driving was from renewable energy
30% was from coal (still less emissions than ICE)
2% Hydroelectric
29% natural gas (much lower emissions than ICE)
8% nuclear

That's using 2020 averages from my local utility company. Some areas would be better, some would be worse. Even a make believe fairytale land that is 100% coal would still be better for emissions than a pure gas engine.

 

[HFCS]

If that $12500 credit passes, you’ll wish you waited!
What did you get?

I couldn't wait because both my cars came down with insanely ridiculous repairs at same time. I did get decent amount of credits as is.

Subaru Crosstrek PHEV. I'm sure everyone will tell me how it sucks. I only did 3 year lease because I know it's being phased out.

List of wants:
- Some EV capability
- AWD for backcountry trips (once or twice a month I go backpacking, sometimes trailheads require a little off road, sometimes deal with snow in mountains)
- Good gas mileage in hybrid mode because a couple days a week I still have really long commute and gas is really high here (eliminated the Jeep 4xE at just 18-20mpg)
- Not gigantic for city driving/parking. This was just me, somehow my wife doesn't mind giant car in crowded major city.

Things I know suck about it already:
- Tiny storage space because they didn't build the battery into it in an efficient way. (the 4xE built the battery in amazingly)

I think by the time the lease is over there will be much wider range of EVs. Charging stations popping up everywhere I go more and more. There really were only 2-3 options for the things I was looking at, I probably ruled out some ridiculously priced options too.

 

[Sigmapolis]

I've been driving on EV for 9 days now because my PHEV hasn't needed to go further than EV range since I've had it.

30% of my driving was from renewable energy
30% was from coal (still less emissions than ICE)
2% Hydroelectric
29% natural gas (much lower emissions than ICE)
8% nuclear

That's using 2020 averages from my local utility company. Some areas would be better, some would be worse. Even a make believe fairytale land that is 100% coal would still be better for emissions than a pure gas engine.

You can't really use long-term averages like that from a local utility.

You need to use the actual hourly generation for a wider region, likely MISO if you're in Iowa, from the hours where you actually have the thing plugged in and charging.

Generally speaking, though, I would imagine you charge the EV at night.

Solar is obviously a zero at night, but Iowa and MISO have very little solar but a ton of wind.

Wind tends to be a much higher share of generation at night.

Coal and gas tend to be highest in the day. Hydroelectric tends to be run in the day, too.

Nuclear is pretty much the same all the time.

So adjusted correctly, those numbers would look "better" towards renewables/wind.

 

[HFCS]

You can't really use long-term averages like that from a local utility.

You need to use the actual hourly generation for a wider region, likely MISO if you're in Iowa, from the hours where you actually have the thing plugged in and charging.

Generally speaking, though, I would imagine you charge the EV at night.

Solar is obviously a zero at night, but Iowa and MISO have very little solar but a ton of wind.

Wind tends to be a much higher share of generation at night.

Coal and gas tend to be highest in the day. Hydroelectric tends to be run in the day, too.

Nuclear is pretty much the same all the time.

So adjusted correctly, those numbers would look "better" towards renewables/wind.

Breakdown of the renewables in my area
3% biomass
2% geothermal
12% wind
13% solar

Even if it was 100% coal it's still cheaper, cleaner and more efficient than ICE.

 

[simply1]

I couldn't wait because both my cars came down with insanely ridiculous repairs at same time. I did get decent amount of credits as is.

Subaru Crosstrek PHEV. I'm sure everyone will tell me how it sucks. I only did 3 year lease because I know it's being phased out.

List of wants:
- Some EV capability
- AWD for backcountry trips (once or twice a month I go backpacking, sometimes trailheads require a little off road, sometimes deal with snow in mountains)
- Good gas mileage in hybrid mode because a couple days a week I still have really long commute and gas is really high here (eliminated the Jeep 4xE at just 18-20mpg)
- Not gigantic for city driving/parking. This was just me, somehow my wife doesn't mind giant car in crowded major city.

Things I know suck about it already:
- Tiny storage space because they didn't build the battery into it in an efficient way. (the 4xE built the battery in amazingly)

I think by the time the lease is over there will be much wider range of EVs. Charging stations popping up everywhere I go more and more. There really were only 2-3 options for the things I was looking at, I probably ruled out some ridiculously priced options too.

Yeah, I’m wishing the Jeep MPGe was higher, and things will shake out more in 3 years for sure.

 

[brianhos]

If that $12500 credit passes, you’ll wish you waited!
What did you get?

If that passes I am going to trade up to an EV.

 

[cycloneworld]

If that passes I am going to trade up to an EV.

Same. I’ve been eyeing several PHEV and EVs and I think I’m sold on pure EV. Looking at a Tesla Model Y, Model 3, Volve XC40 Recharge, but may hold out for the Ford 150 EV next year...

 

[HFCS]

Same. I’ve been eyeing several PHEV and EVs and I think I’m sold on pure EV. Looking at a Tesla Model Y, Model 3, Volve XC40 Recharge, but may hold out for the Ford 150 EV next year...

If you want a car rather than a truck/suv/awd, and you live an urban place with traffic, high gas prices and tax incentives it makes a lotof sense already. Those places have more charging options by the day too.

From my experience we are close but not quite there on AWD/SUV/truck EV options. The PHEV is there for some of those now and it was not 5 years ago. The Rav4 PHEV actually has impressive pure electric range for a PHEV but there is a shortage right now and dealers in my area are charging way over MSRP right now (one was marking up 8k...for a Rav4 basically wiping out the federal tax credit!). I don't really care for how it looks or handles compared to what I got anyway.

 

[aobie]

If you want a car rather than a truck/suv/awd, and you live an urban place with traffic, high gas prices and tax incentives it makes a lotof sense already. Those places have more charging options by the day too.

From my experience we are close but not quite there on AWD/SUV/truck EV options. The PHEV is there for some of those now and it was not 5 years ago. The Rav4 PHEV actually has impressive pure electric range for a PHEV but there is a shortage right now and dealers in my area are charging way over MSRP right now (one was marking up 8k...for a Rav4 basically wiping out the federal tax credit!). I don't really care for how it looks or handles compared to what I got anyway.

I have an order for an AWD Mustang Mach E, and a reservation still (that I need to cancel for a VW ID.4 AWD). Both are a bit shy of true SUV territory, but it does seem like more truck EV options are incoming soon .

 

[HFCS]

I have an order for an AWD Mustang Mach E, and a reservation still (that I need to cancel for a VW ID.4 AWD). Both are a bit shy of true SUV territory, but it does seem like more truck EV options are incoming soon .

One of the aging cars we replaced was a VW Tiguan that was a great car for 8 years and I was expecting to love the ID.4 but surprised I didn't.

Mach E seems more intriguing to me too, report back how it is.

 

[simply1]

One of the aging cars we replaced was a VW Tiguan that was a great car for 8 years and I was expecting to love the ID.4 but surprised I didn't.

Mach E seems more intriguing to me too, report back how it is.

The reviews I’ve seen on the id4 haven’t been great, Mach e seems more like a Tesla with 0-60 in a bit over 3 seconds