Avalos: "Chaplain issue must never die"
- Thread starter Incyte
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I'm not trying to "protect the player." If I was trying to do that, I'd have them be the bubble boy. What I am against, is a public institution such as a school giving implicit preferential treatment toward a religion. However, according to a few people, that makes me "an anti-religion" bigot. Which, really just makes me laugh, because all it shows is that 1) they don't know me, and 2) they need to put down someone they don't know to feel better about their own life.
And conservatives like to ***** about hatred and bigotry by the left. No one particular ideology owns the "hatred and bigotry" franchise.
What is the minority group these "anti-religious bigots" are stereotyping and calling names? And although this is only personal opinion, I would guess that a majority of these "anti-religious bigots" were raised in a certain faith. Thus, I don't think you can say they are ignorant about the facts of religion and faith. Finally, I doubt most have a blind hatred for all things religious. I certainly don't hate all things religious. That would mean hating my parents and hating my in-laws (which consists of two youth ministers and a former Baptist preacher). I can assure you I do not hate any of these people.
After you brought up the KKK, I did some quick reading on them as I admit I'm not very knowledgeable on their history. Did you know that the KKK has what are called "kludds"? These "kludds" are their chaplains.
It is sad. You asked what public opinion would be. That is what it would be if you threw a muslim cleric in the mix per your scenario. A muslim cleric may be as peaceful as Mr. Rogers as far as I know. But, in this day in age and with everything going on in the middle east... that would be the concern.
Look, I go to church every sunday. I don't go around throwing religion in anyone's face. Part of being a Christian is spreading the "Good News". The Bible doesn't say how and it certainly isn't done through threats. I try to have my own relationship with God and fully expect that others to have their own relationship with God (or not) at a time of His choosing, not mine. If they never develop a relationship with God then that is His plan. Who am I to try to override that?
If a person is there to help others and that person just happens to be heavily involved with the church, it doesn't mean that person is going to push the person he/she is helping towards religion. Just the fact that he or she is there to help might just be enough to gain interest by the person asking for help. Is that really such a bad thing? It is called setting an example for others to emulate.
Avalos wants to be emulated too. These kids are old enough to decide on their own. Though they are still impressionable, they are not grade school kids. Avalos knows these kids are still impressionable and I'm sure he sees this "life advisor" as more of a threat to his beliefs, or lacketherof, than anything else.
Before the current chaplain contreversy arose, ISU was already an affiliate of the Fellowship of Christian Athletes organization and has a program (huddle) on campus. Campus leadership and guidance is currently available. Before this current chaplain contreversy arose, a volunteer chaplain was already in place on the staff of the ISU football program.
Based on the energy and muscle Chizik and Pollard have expended to bring into place a southern Baptist chaplain's operation in our football progam, if they are not pushing a particular religious agenda, than just what are they doing?
They are trying to provide young athletes and their families with a good place to play sports, where they know that there will be leadership and help available if they need it. Period.
I am curious, if the person "who just happens to be heavily involved with the church" happens to be a Christian, are not statements (1) and (2) opposites in your argument.
Also, as to statement number (3), is what you say about Avalos based on speculation or do you have a factul basis for your remarks. If indeed you have some specific knowledge into his state of mind relative to his (Avalos) emulation needs and wants, I would like know what it is.
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- Mar 23, 2006
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This is a gentle reminder to ALL, play nice, respect each other's varying opinions and discuss/debate in a mature manner.
Otherwise, I'll be getting out my wooden spoon. Trust me, wooden spoons hurt.
Otherwise, I'll be getting out my wooden spoon. Trust me, wooden spoons hurt.
Here's my question. Why can't they use the same guidance and leadership already available to every other student, like me?
Your attendance at ISU doesn't generate millions. That's why they get the special treatment.
While I respect your opinion, I also respectfully disagree with your observation. The school is not giving any preferential treatment to any religion. This is not a state, government, or university paid position. Money is being donated, much in the same way Mac's Chaplian was compensated, and FCA is provideing everything else. Just like the Chaplian at Iowa. Granted the new coach is Baptist....Chizik is not. There is no difference here than on campus groups useing campus facilities for prayer meetings. Useing campus media to advertise meetings and get togethers for religious or non-religous groups. Or dispensing of religious or anti-religous materials. What makes you sound anti-religous.....is it does not affeect you or other students. And it does not affect the players that do not wish to participate. All your arguements are based on "what ifs." And I am saying this in a respectfull tone to your observation. Once agian...who cares? How does it affect any student, fan, or faculty? The reason Avelos does not want this do die is simple.....he is enjoying his 15-minutes of fame. DMR quotes....radio interviews etc. He is an opportunist and useing people as pawns to get his little interviews....
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Not really. I didn't attack you or any other person's post on this topic (as you did mine) as lacking in facts or merit simply because I disagreed with them.
The merits of the chaplain are tied directly to Avalos' point.
So a non Baptist or non religious players' first choice for life advice would be a Baptist minister? Yeah, right.
Not a stereotype at all. Baptists don't believe in the infant baptism practiced by most religions, and only baptize through immersion.
Wow, you win for angriest post in this thread.
But you also have some facts really distorted here. You liken non-religious people to the KKK. In fact, the KKK as one of the first terrorist organizations has always held distorted, Christian fundamentalist views; much like Al Qaeda's views on the Muslim religion. And they used/use these views to justify terrorizing and murdering people of different views and races. The KKK is definitely not now, nor ever has been, a group of angry Atheists as you suggest.
No they aren't. They never have been.
Your comment was pure speculation, no matter how you try to spin it. Just like the one about Chizik being a Baptist...
It was a stereotype, and you know it. Your point wasn't about the different means that various protestant religions use to baptize people, or who they choose to baptize. Your point was that a Baptist chaplain, just because he is Baptist (fundamentalist was the term you used), is going to proselytize the football players and force his religious views on them.
I didn't say they were denied constitutional rights. But they are denied the same benifits/rights that heterosexual couples are. Can they get "married" in a legal sense? No. Can two people, that have dated longer than heterosexual couples have been married multiple times get any tax benefit? No. That's what I mean that they don't have the same standing/rights.
For a football chaplain, I would rather have Minister Silly Graham than Pope Benedict than Rabbi Weisman than Atehist Avalos in that order. Frankly, Baptists chaplains relate more to young boys IMO than others. They are better motivational speakers - bring the fire and brimstone.
As far as mention of gays, I do not remember hearing too many called out in football. I know they have several gay players in the pros but their numbers by percentage appear to be fewer than those in the general population. I do not think it is much of an issue in football. Just a comment. It also seem like the percentage is higher for whites than blacks. Just another comment. Does not seem as controversial as 10 years ago. Just a comment. People appear to be melding together well in America, even the illegals. If you go to west texas, you better be bi-lingual to survive. What a great country. Something for everyone.
As far as mention of gays, I do not remember hearing too many called out in football. I know they have several gay players in the pros but their numbers by percentage appear to be fewer than those in the general population. I do not think it is much of an issue in football. Just a comment. It also seem like the percentage is higher for whites than blacks. Just another comment. Does not seem as controversial as 10 years ago. Just a comment. People appear to be melding together well in America, even the illegals. If you go to west texas, you better be bi-lingual to survive. What a great country. Something for everyone.
