How would Shonn Greene do in the Big 12?

Clones85'

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Good post.

Shonn Greene is a good RB and will be in the NFL. I know a lot of Cyclone fans won't admit that but he will be.

I am not saying he is not capable of getting all the yards in the Big 12, I just think he would not be given the same chance. He couldn't get the carries and still have his team come away with wins
 

snowcraig2.0

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That is a tough question. I guess the first to ask would be, is there a school in the Big 12 that would allow someone who could barely hack it at Kirkwood back into an accredited university?
 

cloneu

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Good post.

Shonn Greene is a good RB and will be in the NFL. I know a lot of Cyclone fans won't admit that but he will be.

I am not saying he is not capable of getting all the yards in the Big 12, I just think he would not be given the same chance. He couldn't get the carries and still have his team come away with wins

Agree on all accounts. YPC would probably be the same, everything else would be less.
 

cmhawks99

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How do you explain OSU embarrassing themselves the past two years and Illinois getting throttled in the Rose Bowl?

Here's how: The Big 10 is slow while the rest of the BCS conferences are fast. Once Michigan gets its players in there, they will be reigning champs of that league because of programs like Iowa running offenses from the 1970s...


No, no, no that is what people choose to believe, but it is lazy journalism and thought process. Don't take my word for it, go and look up the combine times yourself. tOSU is routinely one of the fastest most athletic teams in the nation and if they weren't they would not have about 50 NFL alumni making them number one, two or three. I don't expect you too take my word for it, but I have done the necessary investigation.

If you’d like I’ll start posting the necessary evidence as I have the file saved. I have alredy pointed out the times of FOUR of LSU’s very pedestrian times. I’ll go so far as to say if they lined up for a track race tOSU would have one. They lost for other reason’s
 

DaddyMac

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Probably just as well, if not better with the lack of defensive prowess in the conference.

Probably. But like any other similar arguement, it's a factor of where he plays.

You can count on about a 600-800 difference if he's playing in the Big XII at ISU, or at Texas.

I've said he's an outstanding back and I'd welcome him with open arms to ISU. But I also think he owes a few dinners to his O-Line.
 

mj4cy

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See notes in red for response.


Wow there is a whole lot on here, so I’ll work on dispelling myths and pointing out ironies.

Irony #1 being there are only three Big 10 teams in the top 10 combined offenses. Yet the better teams are the one’s with the better Defenses. I agree with the old adage that defense win championships.

Irony #2 PSU is in the top 10 on O and D as is Texas, TT & OU, annnnddddd they are probably the best teams day in day out proving it takes more than O. In my opinion and mine only, Texas, and TT both play better D than they are given credit for, but past that the other Big 12 D's, OU included are terrible. I have no clue what you're getting at here.

Green is explosive enough and you'll note the better backs in the NFL are typically very powerful guys who can run a little, not speed burners per se. They also last 3-5 years and burn out because they take too many hits. Most of them (besides Barber this year) have to split carries or else they can't finish a season.With that said come scouting combine time, I wont be surprised to find out Greene is faster that Hunter & Washington, not saying he is, but it won't surprise me.

Which brings me to my favorite subject. I love the Big 12 and SEC and have for years. I really miss Jamelle Holloway and Marcus Dupree and I say this to show I am NOT a hater. However this myth about the "speed" and athleticism of the Big 12 and SEC being far superior to the Big 10 just slays me. The BIG 12 is a far advanced conference right now on O, I'll agree. They are clearly a better conference right now, but to keep up this other mantra a person has to close their eyes to a lot of facts.

The Big 10 has waaaaayyyyy more NFL players than the Big 12 with one less team.What does this have to do with anything They have put countless Lbers in the NFL (#1 for outside Lbers per conference I believe)congrats? so they are routinely adept at covering Wr's in the flat, middle and deep outs with said Lbers. They also have plenty of Sfty's and corners in the NFL and they aren’t some Neanderthal behemoths that can't run. How can you make that correlation? You could argue at the same time because the offenses are so bad in the Big 10, it made the defensive players look great and they go to the NFL.

I follow the NFL Pro days and scouting combines very closely. Every year about the time for the ISU game everyone talks about how much faster ISU will be than us, and how much faster the Big 12 is as a whole. Guess what, they aren't. Alvin Bowen was not faster than Mike Humpal and his shuttle and Pro agility times weren't close. OU has had many Lbers and Db's run way slower times than what Iowa's guys have run. LSU had an Lber Ali Higsmith run a 4.96 and 3 Db's run between 4.56 to 4.58- forties while Charles Godfrey ran a 4.38 to 4.48 depending on whether you take Pro day or combine times. This actually is a good point, but you're taking a generalized statement backed up by a few cases. Lineup team vs. team top to bottom, then you have an argument.

The long-winded point being, no one knows how Greene would do in your conference, but the Big 12 being a speed league would have NO bearing whatsoever. Now Iowa getting behind would, but as limited as we can be offensively, if we don't turn it over 5 times we have enough team speed on D to hang with people "if" we can put some points on the board and control the clock, Hence why we run, and what would ultimately be Greene's downfall as some succinctly pointed out.


Sorry for the rant, I really enjoy reading stuff over here, as it is a nice change off pace from the Hawkeye report. That is just a pet peeve of mine.

Chad
 

JonDMiller

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I heard the first few minutes of Miller, but he is forgetting that all these guys he is mentioning didn't play as many games as Green.

If there wasn't a thing called average yards per carry, and roughly 300 attempts to base it on, you might be on to something. But there were several of those backs on that list that played 12 or 13 games.
 

cybsball20

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If there wasn't a thing called average yards per carry, and roughly 300 attempts to base it on, you might be on to something. But there were several of those backs on that list that played 12 or 13 games.

Didn't Eddie George have 52 receptions or something like that? I think Greene has more drops than receptions. Bowl game numbers don't count in the voting, and Dayne had one of the weakest Heisman classes of date.
 
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mj4cy

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Besides Penn State, Iowa has had a horribly easy schedule IMO.
 

jumbopackage

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And when you play crappy defenses, you'll likely have a statistically better offense.

As I've said, (or at least I typed at one time and think I said), the Big 12's offenses are more powerful than the Big 10's defenses at this point in time. BUT, you have to admit, you pit a Big 12 team against a Big Ten team, and they're typically not going to have the same insane offensive numbers.

At the same token, you pit a Big Ten team against a Big 12 team, they're not going to have the same defensive numbers.

All I'm saying is, I think Greene would do better in the Big 12 because of the softer defenses. How that would translate to wins and losses, we could debate that all day.

Let's see, Ohio State's #2 in the nation D got worked by USC to the tune of 35-3. USC is currently ranked 14th in the nation in scoring O. There are 5 Big XII teams ranked higher than 14 in the nation in scoring O.

At any rate, Iowa passes the ball the 3rd least amongst ALL teams in both conferences

Ohio St 226
Okie St 249
Iowa 270
Baylor 274
Wisconsin 295
MI St 311
Michigan 313
Penn St 315
Indiana 333
Minnesota 350
Illinois 356
Oklahoma 360
Nebraska 371
Texas 377
TexasA&M 377
Colorado 378
NWestern 382
Iowa State 388
K State 394
Kansas 413
Missouri 435
Purdue 444
TexasTech 499

Interestingly enough, Iowa isn't even in the top 5 in rush attempts.

Okie St 506
Wisconsin 497
Ohio St 458
Michigan St 453
Penn St 447
Baylor 438
Texas 436
Oklahoma 424
Iowa 422
Illinois 421
Colorado 417
NWestern 417
Indiana 413
Michigan 412
Nebraska 400
Kansas 384
Minnesota 377
K State 371
Iowa State 367
Purdue 359
TX A&M 343
Missouri 333
TX Tech 257

It's a chicken-or-the-egg problem comparing Os and Ds when they are so clearly different between the two, but an explosive O will destroy a good D these days. The old "a great D beats a great O" analogy is dead, IMO.

Last year Ohio State had the #1 overall defense in the NCAA. They got 38 put up on them by LSU.

The year before that, Ohio State had the #5 scoring D, and #12 total D in the nation. Florida put up 41 on them.

The only reason that the Ds are ranked so highly in the Big 10 is because the Os are so awful.
 

delt4cy

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I kind of skimmed through your giant post so again I apologize for being lazy but a few things I need to point out (unless you did of course)

1. The Big 12 has only been around for 10 years so of course the Big 10 will have many more NFL players.

2. The shift in power conferences has just happend within the past 5-6 years as the Big 12 has settled and managed a basic stranglehold on Texas and Midwest athletes. (Midwest meaning the great plains states)

3. The shift in offenses like I mentioned in my earlier post has just happened within the last 5-10 years. (Thank you Mike Leach at 0U) So....the former juggernaut pro-set power offenses that the Big 10 had been clinging and dominating with are shifting to a thing of the past. (Defenses adjusted over time to stop the pro-set, Offenses adjusted over time to beat the juggernaut D, Defenses will again adjust over time to stop the "spread", it goes in cycles)

4. I don't even know what I'm talking about any more

5. SEC has for the most part a stranglehold on recruiting kids for the SE US. Big 12 has the same for the most part on Texas and the plains as I mentioned earlier. Big 10 teams are left to pick and choose athletes in these areas under the dominant Big 12/SEC schools and then the have their pick of the best "Rust Belt" athletes. Woohoo!! Now there are some exceptions but I think that we have and will continue to see this shift into the future. IMO

6. We will definitely see many of the athletes posting huge #'s in the Big 12 playing on Sundays. Unlike what we have seen in the past. Bag it! Crabtree, Maclin, Briscoe, Shipley, Cosby, etc., etc, etc., Arnaud:wink: will all be successful in the next level. IMO Sam Bradford and possibly, as much as it pains me to say, Josh Freeman will be the only current Big 12 QB's to play on Sundays though. Which I think may tie into one of your original points.

Ok I'm done. Sorry if much of that was irrevelant or pointless babbling and in the process of trying to avoid it myself, I have in fact responded with a giant *** post.
 

cybot

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How do you explain OSU embarrassing themselves the past two years and Illinois getting throttled in the Rose Bowl?

Here's how: The Big 10 is slow while the rest of the BCS conferences are fast. Once Michigan gets its players in there, they will be reigning champs of that league because of programs like Iowa running offenses from the 1970s...

Shonn Greene would tear up the Big 12 just like he's tearing up the Big Ten. Like it or not the guy is a major talent.

Here is some interesting reading I stole from one of the Hawk boards. It kinda makes you go.....huh!

Oddity #1: Penn State falls to the last of the one loss teams in the BCS, based on their close win at Ohio State and their loss at Iowa. Alabama grows their votes for #1 after beating Kentucky at home, 17-14, Ole Miss at home 24-20, and beating an average LSU team on the road in overtime. Texas Tech thrashes the #9 BCS team and gains no ground. Odd?


Oddity #2: The Big Ten is trashed as a conference, based primarily on tOSU's two blow out losses in the BCS Championship game, regardless of the fact tOSU has won all its other BCS matchups. Oklahoma, on the other hand, lost the Fiesta Bowl last year to WV, 48-28; in 2006, they lost the Fiesta to Boise State, 43-42; in 2005, they lost their two big matchups 41-24 to UCLA and 45-12 to Texas; in 2004, they lost the BCS championship to USC, 55-19; and in 2003, they lost the Big 12 Championship to K-State, 35-7, still made it to the big game, only to get beat 14-7. Yet, Ohio State and the Big Ten get the rap. Odd?


Oddity #3: The SEC is proclaimed the most dominant conference in football. Yet, when they venture out of conference to play other BCS conference teams, they are average at best. Yes, they own the ACC (who doesn't?), but in this new century, The SEC is 14-13 vs. the Big Ten; 13-13 versus the Big 12; 6-10 versus the PAC-10; and 6-13 versus the Big East (yes, that's correct). In the past five years, the SEC is 9-9 against the Big Ten; 11-9 versus the Big 12; 6-7 versus the PAC-10; and 2-8 versus the Big East. Odd?


Does anyone else think that the SEC has been just a tad bit overrated? :confused:
 

cmhawks99

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Here are 3 quick examples of “super speedyâ€￾ OU and their April 9th Pro day times for

WR Malcolm Kelly (6-3 7/8, 227): Ran the 40 in 4.75 and 4.68

DB Reggie Smith (6-0 1/8, 192): Ran the 40 in 4.65 and 4.61

» CB Marcus Walker (5-10 3/8, 194): Ran the 40 in 4.65 and 4.62,

Not what you would have expected huh????? As a whole the Big 10 is fast conference defensively. We are a limited right now offensively at QB and to a smaller degree WR!
 

Clones85'

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Here are 3 quick examples of “super speedyâ€￾ OU and their April 9th Pro day times for

WR Malcolm Kelly (6-3 7/8, 227): Ran the 40 in 4.75 and 4.68

DB Reggie Smith (6-0 1/8, 192): Ran the 40 in 4.65 and 4.61

» CB Marcus Walker (5-10 3/8, 194): Ran the 40 in 4.65 and 4.62,

Not what you would have expected huh????? As a whole the Big 10 is fast conference defensively. We are a limited right now offensively at QB and to a smaller degree WR!

Only 3 guys?!?! Was there not more? And how is Malcolm Kelly a defender?
 

cmhawks99

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Besides Penn State, Iowa has had a horribly easy schedule IMO.


That horribly easy schedule has been vastly upgraded and I believe now is consider somewhere around number 35, so your biased. As for you critique of my last post. These alumni are relevant because the NFL is a spppeeeeeeeeddddddddd league and tOSU has the most. And if you think they are getting in the league because they have stats built up by playing crappy O’s then I’m not sure what to say. I’d hope the guys who get paid thousands of dollars to evaluate them would be able to recognize this. Furthermore, these are guys “playingâ€￾ not getting drafted and getting dumped. I can only assume that this was an attempt to discredit, but it fell a little short. Lineup to lineup the Big 10 is very fast. I didn’t cherry pick isolated examples. I chose LSU because everyone is convinced they were way faster and right away 4 prominent members on their D were quite slow per 40 times. Now I happen to believe there is a lot more to being fast than 40 times, but all the same, the facts are that per “numbersâ€￾ the Big 10 is the equal of the aforementioned.

Iowa currently has 6 or 7 Lbers that would be as quick or quicker than most anyone in the 3 big leagues. The fastest probably being Angerer at 4.57!
 

cmhawks99

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Some of you fellas make me chuckle. Look it up yourself, 2008 NFL Pro day times. I can only look up what they list. OU only had 3 guys in speed positions so that's what you got. Go look them up and you'll find that the Big 10 compares favorably and by the way, I have counted players per conference team, so the age of the Big 12 has nooooooo bearing whatsoever.

I appreciate the attempt to rationalize, but believe me this has been a work in progress for me. I have checked and updated this for several years. Another point of interest, the Big 10 is getting faster, not slower, so there is no significant power shift that is taking it's time. In fact a couple years ago, the Big 12 got the closest it's been to the Big 10 for NFL alumni. They have since widened the gap profusely and last I checked were equal to the SEC at 22 per team.
 

mj4cy

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That horribly easy schedule has been vastly upgraded and I believe now is consider somewhere around number 35, so your biased. As for you critique of my last post. These alumni are relevant because the NFL is a spppeeeeeeeeddddddddd league and tOSU has the most. And if you think they are getting in the league because they have stats built up by playing crappy O’s then I’m not sure what to say. I’d hope the guys who get paid thousands of dollars to evaluate them would be able to recognize this. Furthermore, these are guys “playingâ€￾ not getting drafted and getting dumped. I can only assume that this was an attempt to discredit, but it fell a little short. Lineup to lineup the Big 10 is very fast. I didn’t cherry pick isolated examples. I chose LSU because everyone is convinced they were way faster and right away 4 prominent members on their D were quite slow per 40 times. Now I happen to believe there is a lot more to being fast than 40 times, but all the same, the facts are that per “numbersâ€￾ the Big 10 is the equal of the aforementioned.

Iowa currently has 6 or 7 Lbers that would be as quick or quicker than most anyone in the 3 big leagues. The fastest probably being Angerer at 4.57!

Some of you fellas make me chuckle. Look it up yourself, 2008 NFL Pro day times. I can only look up what they list. OU only had 3 guys in speed positions so that's what you got. Go look them up and you'll find that the Big 10 compares favorably and by the way, I have counted players per conference team, so the age of the Big 12 has nooooooo bearing whatsoever.

I appreciate the attempt to rationalize, but believe me this has been a work in progress for me. I have checked and updated this for several years. Another point of interest, the Big 10 is getting faster, not slower, so there is no significant power shift that is taking it's time. In fact a couple years ago, the Big 12 got the closest it's been to the Big 10 for NFL alumni. They have since widened the gap profusely and last I checked were equal to the SEC at 22 per team.


Again, show me top to bottom a Big 10 vs. Big 12 team on speed. Nonetheless, even if a Big 10 team had more speed, their offenses they run don't nearly cater it as well as Big 12 offenses so what a waste of "speed"
 

mj4cy

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That horribly easy schedule has been vastly upgraded and I believe now is consider somewhere around number 35, so your biased. As for you critique of my last post. These alumni are relevant because the NFL is a spppeeeeeeeeddddddddd league and tOSU has the most. And if you think they are getting in the league because they have stats built up by playing crappy O’s then I’m not sure what to say. I’d hope the guys who get paid thousands of dollars to evaluate them would be able to recognize this. Furthermore, these are guys “playingâ€￾ not getting drafted and getting dumped. I can only assume that this was an attempt to discredit, but it fell a little short. Lineup to lineup the Big 10 is very fast. I didn’t cherry pick isolated examples. I chose LSU because everyone is convinced they were way faster and right away 4 prominent members on their D were quite slow per 40 times. Now I happen to believe there is a lot more to being fast than 40 times, but all the same, the facts are that per “numbersâ€￾ the Big 10 is the equal of the aforementioned.

Iowa currently has 6 or 7 Lbers that would be as quick or quicker than most anyone in the 3 big leagues. The fastest probably being Angerer at 4.57!


Let's look Iowa's wins against their "tough" schedule

Maine: Awful
FIU: Disaster
Iowa State: Very Bad
Indiana: Horrible
Wisconsin: Very down this year
Penn State: Very good but still overrated at #3 when they played
Purdue: Bad
 

intrepid27

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If Green were playing for TX, OU, Okie St, Colorado, Nebbie or even ISU he would be a signicant part of the offense, get a lot of carries, and probably have as many yards (Not at ISU due to poor line play) as he does at Iowa. Most other Big XII offenses he would primarily be a blocking back. It is impossible to compare the two conferences this year from a statistical standpoint as the offensive production is night and day. I can't wait to see the two confereences play each other in a couple of bowl games.
 
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