Jay Leno Asks Why - OT

[isucyfan]

But right now, we have 2 options: fix our "mistake" or pull out and walk away from it. I know in my line of work if I make a mistake, I am expected to fix it. Not just walk away from it. Which is why I don't understand why some want to just pull out and throw away everything good we have done there.

Generally I agree. But unfortunately, this is a problem we don't seem able to solve. It has been a problem for thousands of years, and probably will be for another thousand. A troop surge is not going to undo a thousand years of conflict. I realize that many lives would be lost if we pull out and leave them to fight amongst one another, but that is what is happening now, and it's killing our men and women, too.

 

[isucyfan]

With that philosophy, how could we ever have a nation defense system?

The difference to me is that the Commander in Chief used to use the the troops wisely, for wars that were justified in defending the nation, not for justifying a personal agenda without the support of the world. We clearly went after the wrong people in this war, and American lives are being lost because of this misguided act.

 

[Cyclonepride]

Oh, and most people who have lost an argument don't go back to look:wink0st: .

Kyle?.............Are you there, Kyle?:laugh8kb: :laugh8kb: :laugh8kb: :laugh8kb: :laugh8kb: :laugh8kb:

 

[Erik4Cy]

Fact is, we are the largest group of ungrateful, spoiled brats the world has ever seen. No wonder the world loves the US, yet has a great disdain for its citizens. They see us for what we are. The most blessed people in the world who do nothing but complain about what we don't have, and what we hate about the country instead of thanking the good Lord we
live here.

I don't agree with this whatsoever...I don't believe the world LOVES the US and has a great disdain for it citizens, i think its completely the other way around. I talk to a lot of people outside of the U.S. mostly in the U.K. and Europe and they all LOVE the american people themselves but totally hate the United States government. We act as though we are the world's police force and make ourselves look like war-mongerers in the process. We believe we are the only ones that matter in the world and whatever we say to other countries GOES! The United States of America is a great country, but I get sick of everyone in America who calls it the greatest country on earth (AND THEY HAVE NEVER LEFT THE COUNTRY!!! HOW Dumb is THAT?) At least go see what other countries are like (don't trust what you hear about them.) I love America, but it's like Lewis Black says:

"America is the only country on earth that tells all the other countries, on a nearly constant basis, that it is the greatest country on earth. If someone at your work came in everyday and said "I am the greatest person here!!!! and all you sniveling sh*ts would die without me!!! muahahaha," you would have killed him by the end of the week and EATEN him just to try and possess his power."

 

[jbhtexas]

isucyclone4, have you talked to anybody in The Netherlands lately? Are they enjoying the violence being perpetrated against them by Muslim fundamentalists?

I'm guessing in about 10 years, when The Netherlands has been completely taken over by Muslim fundamentalists (if it lasts that long), the Dutch will be wishing that their government acted a little bit more like ours. Same for Germany, Belgium, etc.

 

[Wesley]

France is 20% Muslim now.

 

[Kyle]

Just to fill you in, there is no need to rebutt an idea that is counter to our way of life.

The theory that capitalism tends to concentrate wealth in the hands of a few is counter to our way of life how exactly?

Oh, and most people who have lost an argument don't go back to look:wink0st: .

Who decided I lost! I demand a recount! Fire the refs! This is a travesty! :wink0st:

Kyle?.............Are you there, Kyle?

I'm trying to study for my 4 credit property final on Thursday that is worth 100% of my grade, so I had to just ban myself from here for a bit to get anything done. For similar reasons I (hopefully) won't be on that much until the end of next week. We need to have these debates during the summer when I don't have as much to do.

 

[Cyclonepride]

Marxism is counter to our way of life. And I hear you there, I had a light day at work or I wouldn't have had as much time to flap my gums as I did today. I appreciate the good debate though.

 

[Wesley]

Bush used his second veto tonight. The showdown will be tomorrow with Pelosi and Reid. Politics reigns supreme.

 

[Cyclonesrule91]

And before you and CR91 want to accuse me of partisanship, it would be best for you to understand that I voted for his highness - twice, and have been a lifelong Republican.

I can just see the forest through the BS.

The way I see it, in response to both of you. There's two sources of information. The media and White House press releases. I regularly discern info from various sources. Fox, NBC, NPR, a variety of web sources. So my views come from a wide background and Conservative perspective.

I am not trying to accuse you of anything. I just read in your first post telling the Prez to watch the media reports on how the war is going instead of press memo's doctored by Cheney etc. I don't trust the media one tiny little bit, mostly as a result of my past experience. I think the media has a whole lot more desire to spend all efforts to make Bush look bad and make it look like everybody and their pets are pissed at him for all his war decisions then Rove, Cheney and the others you mentioned are trying to cover things up.

I also find it extremely difficult to think that Bush and his staff would alter their intelligence just so they could come up with a reason to go to war so he could get back at Iraq for his father as some would have you believe. This nation is packed full of armchair QB's who know exactly how they would have done it if they were in charge.....and of course anybody can do that in hindsight.

And the argument some have had that the only reason we are hated is because we are trying to be the planet bully??? Wrongoooo people..:no6xn: The world hates us because we are the most prosperous nation on earth and that, my friends, makes us king of the hill. Everyone else just wants to knock us down to their level and I for one am glad we are bullying them. We weren't directly messing with Bin Laden, but he still killed 3,200 people and was hoping a lot more would die as well. As long as you have people with that kind of mindset and the money backing them like Osama Bin Laden, they are going to plot away to kill as many of us in the most horrific way they can.

I would hate to see my opinion rating if I was President, because I would have sent the order to turn the whole damn middle east into a big lake 5 minutes after I confirmed it was done with the sole intention to kill as many americans as possible. First I'd sent all of EIU over on a free missions project so I could get the biggest bang for my taxpayer client base....:wink0st:

 

[cmoore_23]

As long as no more ppl turn into this crazy bizitch i will be happy....

Clip High Quality

(i knew the person that died..)

 

[DaddyMac]

The world hates us because we are the most prosperous nation on earth and that, my friends, makes us king of the hill. Everyone else just wants to knock us down to their level...

Iran, the first and foremost sponsor of international terrorism, hates us simply because we're "prosporous" and "king of the hill"?

If that's what you believe, we'll just end this discussion now.

 

[Cyclonesrule91]

Iran, the first and foremost sponsor of international terrorism, hates us simply because we're "prosporous" and "king of the hill"?

If that's what you believe, we'll just end this discussion now.

Ya, that is what I believe is the major part. Throw in a little radical corrupt Islamic teaching to top it off. If believing that is a just reason to end the discussion, then so be it.

I guess I could type a lot more on this, but basically I am not quite sure what your last post is even implying other then the fact that you think I'm nuts for thinking the way I do. :baffled5wh:

 

[cyclonenum1]

No. I do think he was right about the general trend for wealth to consolidate in the hands of a very small number in capitalist economic systems though.

And you have a problem with that?

The free market (when allowed to work freely) is extremely efficient.

Do you have a problem with the fact that in less than 30 years someone like Bill Gates can become the richest person in America because he has a great idea and makes some very smart business decisions?

Oh, by the way, his rising "tide" of wealth has lifted the "boats" of many, many others.

 

[cyclonenum1]

Do you have any evidence to support this claim?

We are systematically killing / capturing their leadership. As for pure evidence, no, I don't have any...but neither do those on this thread have evidence that our actions are increasing the numbers...these people are not registering as terrorists.

 

[cycloneworld]

Iran, the first and foremost sponsor of international terrorism, hates us simply because we're "prosporous" and "king of the hill"?

If that's what you believe, we'll just end this discussion now.

Yes, that along with the fact that we support Isreal. What other reasons are there?

 

[Whitey]

By the way, just a quick kudos to all posters in this thread. I doubt that anyone will change their mind due to this fun little debate. However, it's nice to know that we, as Cyclone fans, spend time thinking about something besides sports.

I really appreciate people who have passion and compassion for real world events. Everyone give yourself a collective pat on the back.

 

[cyclonenum1]

Never said Clinton was perfect.

Yes. Thousands of American deaths in each case. If thousands of American soldiers died for the sake of preventing, say 500 American deaths here, we've come out behind. I think we probably could have had the best of both worlds, as I don't buy the "fighting them over there instead of here" line.

Frankly, you're wrong. A large portion of the people we've killed did not pose any threat to us before we invaded. Additionally, most terrorists are not in Iraq and hence aren't running from anything. Saudi Arabia is the breeding ground for a large percentage of terrorists and our actions in Iraq have only aided their recruitment.

Meaning that our "war on terror" is one that really can never be won. Our best hope, through military or any other means, is to reduce the size and effectiveness of that element. I suggest that military force is one of the least effective ways of reducing its size. Small surgical strikes have a role in reducing its effectiveness, as does better intelligence so that we know how to utilize those strikes.

I addressed this previously. Perhaps calling them "friends" is not accurate, but money certainly can and does buy power, influence, information, and allies. The typically Iraqi would tell you a lot more about what is going on if you give him a few thousand dollars. It works the same way with the tribal leaders. When we went into Iraq we took the riches of many Sunni tribal leaders, thus pissing them off, when we could have bought them off for relatively little.

Clinton wasn't perfect? Really? Frankly, part of the reason this problem escalated and 9/11 occurred was that Clinton spent his entire Presidency trying to sweep the tough, controversial things under the rug so he could keep his precious poll numbers "up". Don't take this as me trying to blame Clinton for 9/11...no one person or small set of persons can be blamed for the acts of some crazed lunatics.

Why don't you "buy the "fighting them over there instead of here" line"...would you rather the terrorists being allowed to spend their energy infiltrating our society and causing violence here?

So you are tracking the locations of the terrorists for us? I will agree that many terrorists have left Iraq...BECAUSE OF US! The big difference between Saudia Arabia and Iraq is that one was a "state sponsor" of terrorist activities and the other is not. What are your latest terrorist "recruiting numbers" by the way and where do you get your figures?

Clearly the war on terror is not the conventional, historical type of war. It will not be "won" in the fashion of WWII. But clearly, the best way to reduce the terrorist "element" is to track them down and kill / capture them. WE MUST PLAY OFFENSE!

We already do too much "dollar diplomacy". Frankly, we already pay for intelligence as it is, so I don't get your point. "We took the riches of many Sunni tribal leaders, thus pissing them off, when we could have bought them off for relatively little"...I do not understand this comment at all...what are you saying here?

 

[DaddyMac]

Not nuts CR91. Just wrong. I bought into alot of that too until not that long ago, so I'm not preaching here or anthing.

You guys need to look into a little world history, particularly in that region - as did I (and still do).

Do a google on Iranian Coup 1953. Find out how the Shah came to power, and why. Find out what he did once he got to power. Most of all, find how WHO helped him get to power. And I'll forewarn you, it's tough to find one purely independent and factual, so you'll have to weed through information, and opinion. But the facts are undeniable.

Then do a little check into the Iranian/Iraqi war of the 80's. Who armed Saddam? You've heard the joke, "how do we know Saddam had WMD's? We have the receipts". Where did those get used? Against who? - (Of course we all know this one :wink0st

Yes, and we support Israel. Actually we had a large part in creating Israel and turning the rest of Palestine into a refugee camp we (and nobody else) gave a crap about. Introduce Syria into the picture.

Now, does any of this justify what they do or their support of terrorism? Absolutely not. But it should give some insight into what empowers radical Islam and nationalism in that part of the world. And I'm afraid gents, that it's a little more than just "We're so rich, they're so poor". History shows this country had more than just a small part in that happening.

I don't totally disagree with the "we're the big boy on the block" idea, and everybody wants to see the big boy fall. Just after 9/11, there was and EXCELLENT article on MSNBC via Newsweek (I think) that laid this out exactly. But that idea is generally limited to more of Europe, west Asia, former Soviet republics and other DEVELOPED nations. There is an actual, and fairly legitimate history as to why Iran and US aren't holding hands at the UN.

Question for you two - what do think of the prospect of Fred Thompson (the ACTOR?) throwing his hat into the GOP presidential ring? I for one, am thrilled.

 

[Cyclonesrule91]

Not nuts CR91. Just wrong. I bought into alot of that too until not that long ago, so I'm not preaching here or anthing.

You guys need to look into a little world history, particularly in that region - as did I (and still do).

Do a google on Iranian Coup 1953. Find out how the Shah came to power, and why. Find out what he did once he got to power. Most of all, find how WHO helped him get to power.

Then do a little check into the Iranian/Iraqi war of the 80's. Who armed Saddam? You've heard the joke, "how do we know Saddam had WMD's? We have the receipts". Where did those get used? Against who?

Yes, and we support Israel. Actually we had a large part in creating Israel and turning the rest of Palestine into a refugee camp we (and nobody else) gave a crap about. Introduce Syria into the picture.

Now, does any of this justify what they do or their support of terrorism? Absolutely not. But it should give some insight into what empowers radical Islam and nationalism in that part of the world. And I'm afraid gents, that it's a little more than just "We're so rich, they're so poor". History shows this country had more than just a small part in that happening.

I don't totally disagree with the "we're the big boy on the block" idea, and everybody wants to see the big boy fall. Just after 9/11, there was and EXCELLENT article on MSNBC via Newsweek (I think) that laid this out exactly. But that idea is generally limited to more of Europe, west Asia, former Soviet republics and other DEVELOPED nations. There is an actual, and fairly legitimate history as to why Iran and US aren't holding hands at the UN.

Good arguments Daddymac, and solid too. I am starting to see where you are coming from now...:yes4lo:

This is stuff that has been happening during most of our lifetimes and we are seeing the end results of it in the last 5 yrs especially. The blame can be put on quite a few Presidents and their administrations, but Pres. Bush is taking a lot of the heat from the media now. I wish some people would realize that a lot of times, the affects of your presidency will not be known until many yrs later so bad publicity(as well as good) are not necessarily the results of the current pres.