Let's be honest, where was McCarney taking us?

[darts180]

Sadly, we really didn't outside of Cy-Hawk series. Mac's win over Mizzou last year was one of his better wins in his 12 years. It was sad going into a game vs a good team and knowing we wouldn't win. How we didn't win in Lincoln in 2005 I will never know.

Sadly, and one of the biggest indictments of the Dan McCarney era, was that it was the embodiment (sp) of the "little brother" and that the Hawk game was our "superbowl,"

Another vein in the philosophy of the mediocre, find the weakness in the group (in our case, 15 losses in a row), put all your eggs in that basket, have some success, and use it to prey upon the insecurities of the group. Job security, until a leader emerges to help the fans actually believe that they deserve more.

Even as he was taking his last breath as Iowa State coach, he mentioned the Hawk game. Even though it should have been something that he should have been past, and focusing on the conference, yet he knew that there was a large segment of this fanbase that would rather see Iowa lose than Iowa State win.

 

[CYdTracked]

You don't think Hawk fans want to see ISU lose too? Dan made the Iowa/ISU game a rivalry again. Lot of fun getting beat 15 years in a row was huh? That's a big game for both teams regardless how insignificant each fan base spins if off to be. It's not Ohio State vs Michigan but for both teams it's the closest either has for a big time rival. I want to win that game every year regardless if we are good or bad.

Heck I even remember when we broke the streak. I had overslept somehow and I hear a guy down the dorm hall yell "yes! we are ahead of Iowa!" I wake up and go down the hall, "what's the score?" "7-0!" I say "ah it's too early, we'll blow it and lose by like 30 like we always do." Then as the game went on and we kept building on the lead I was almost pinching myself to make sure I was not dreaming this. Man that was one helluva a night in Ames after that! Something I will remember for a long time.

 

[Clone_12]

Where did our budget rank among other Big 12 schools under McCarney and when did the facility upgrades take place??? I'm pretty sure the budget still ranked towards the very bottom of the conference, and even the small facility upgrades didn't come until the Clones had at least shown improvement in talent level on the field...I know that Gene Smith kept McCarney around early in his career when improvement in the w-l column wasn't showing, because improvement from an athleticism and talent standpoint was showing...then ending the losing streak to Iowa saved him after that...then we started winning and doing things that hadn't been done since the 70's...they weren't great bowl games, and we didn't beat any powerhouses, but we hadn't had success like that since the 70's so MOST people appreciated it...we had a couple winning year's in the 80's when it was tougher to get into bowl games, but our wins those years weren't anymore impressive then our winning seasons under McCarney...that fact is, regardless of why, or what if's, is that McCarney did more than any coach since the 70's...and no, Gene wouldn't have accepted this position if Dan wouldn't have gotten the program to the point where Clone fans expect to win.

 

[darts180]

It doesn't matter what you say, darts will spin this just like he blames Mac for spinning things. For some reason 5 bowl games and sustaining some winning seasons was nothing considering no one before him ever was able to do that. Yes we did underachieve some, I don't think you'll get many arguements about that. You just have no appreciation whatsoever for what Dan did here. Dan pushed for that indoor practice facility hard and he did finally get it. That was not under Pollard's watch either. Let's see, we also got permanent lighting at JT in that time, all this because Dan did some great things here and put ISU football back on the map and I doubt any more 1 or 2 win season would have got those 2 things. We no longer were the doormat of the conference and all the sudden the fan base had new hopes and dreams. How can you not appreciate what he did and just let it be at that? Running his name through the dirt just shows how unappreciative and narrow-minded you sound sometimes. You really think Gene Chizik would have taken the ISU job if we hadn't and even mediocre success? I doubt it...

Do you read what you write???

Dan had more from the university, before the fans, than anyone did before.
Dan had a good year, it built the practice facility, and then when he didn't get another job, we had 03.

We finished last 6 of the 12 years that Dan was here, including TWICE after the miracle turnaround. The bowl games were never higher than 5th on the hierarchy, and only one desirable location. He won 8 games (9 with the bowl game), and never won more than 7 after that. 3-infinity against any teams with a pulse, only 48 D1 wins, in 12 years. I'll tell you that sounds a lot like a doormat.:no6xn:

Why should I appreciate what he did??? He was a mediocre coach, at best, never won the big one, or even several of the smaller ones, made the same mistakes over and over. If I should appreciate the job that Dan McCarney did, then by your logic, YOU should appreciate the job Wayne Morgan did, McDermott never would have looked at us, if Wayne hadn't have kept the program afloat after Larry drank himself out of a job, and noone else wanted it.

And, as I asked someone else before, where was the hope??? Any tough game we were 14 down before we stepped on the field. You could count on losing at least one game a year that you shouldn't, and have no expectation of beating anyone that was better than us.

Lastly, Trav, and I am saying this as a piece of friendly advice, you probably should NEVER accuse anyone of being "narrow minded.":no6xn:

 

[Clone_12]

With the commitment Pollard has made to making ISU better, Greg McDermott's desire to stay close to home, and ISU's basketball resume since the Orr days...McDermott definately would've considered ISU even if they would've completely tanked during the Morgan era...

 

[hoosman]

One thing that got old was always making excuses before every game. Every opponent was made to look like they were the defending national champs. That is a losing attitude. How are fans and players supposed to develop pride and confidence in their team?

When we got into office, the thing that surprised
me most was to find that things were just as bad
as we’d been saying they were.

- John F. Kennedy

 

[tigershoops31]

And we won't even get into how a "respected" 12 year coach of a BCS school had to settle for a position coaching job. History-2 Spin-0

This could be one of your more hypocritical points...where is your beloved Wayne coaching these days?

In reality, I think both Dan and Wayne did a decent job with what they were given to work with. Neither were great, and I'm a lot happier with what we have now in their places. For you to act like Wayne is so much better than McCarney is pretty far out there though. Both enjoyed a small amount of success, and both saw their programs heading downhill in a hurry toward the end. If Dan was a conceited jerk I guess I could understand it, but he was a good guy that gave it his best and didn't succeed, just like Morgan. The only difference is that he was here longer.

 

[cyclonenum1]

This image really needs to be brought out when we get the "Mac was a great guy and did great things for ISU" argument...now that is beating the dead horse!

 

[cyclonenum1]

"But, again, he had more than anyone before him, and did less with it,"...
So Walden did more than McCarney?

I am not here to say Criner and Walden were super coaches at ISU...they were not.

However, the perception by some that McCarney is a far superior coach than either Walden or Criner is a total fallacy. The facts are that Criner lost 57% of the games he coached at ISU, Walden lost 65% of the games he coached at ISU, and McCarney lost 61% of the games he coached at ISU. Frankly, all three records are very similar...as I have pointed out many times before.

All Darts is pointing out is that McCarney had the benefit of far more financial support than either of the two before him and his results were about the same. I would add to this that McCarney also had the benefit of a very weak conference during most of his tenure. I think the old Big 8 was considerably tougher than the Big 12 North has proven to be. Lastly, all of the "Mac took us to Bowl Games" talk to justify his being a great coach is really ridiculous in light of the proliferation of bowl games that has happened in the last 10-15 years.

The bottom line is that McCarney was given a lot that his predecessors were not and he did basically the same job in terms of wins and losses. It really makes me wonder why so many of you want to lionize McCarney at the same time you are burning Walden and Criner at the stake? Why is that? It's not like McCarney wasn't given ample time to prove himself...12 years is a LONG TIME.

 

[Clone_12]

It takes a LOT longer to build a football program than a basketball program...a basketball program you just have to get a couple star players, whether they are hyped up recruits or sleepers like Wesley Johnson and surround them with role players...football is a whole different story. It took McCarney five or six years to build the football program from basically scratch. When Walden left...there was Troy Davis, a couple offensive lineman, and a bunch of slow, unathletic guys that should have been playing for UNI...that's what McCarney started with, and he had ISU's football history and facilities (at the time, which sucked) to work with...it took him a while (maybe longer than it should have) but he built us into a program that had winning records FIVE OF HIS LAST SEVEN YEARS. There is no way he can be compared to Criner or Walden...as for Morgan, as soon as he convinced the recruits to stay, his FIRST team had a lineup of Blalock (great point guard, saw time with Pistons) Stinson (Big 12 freshmen of the year, plays overseas), Sullivan (one of the best pure shooters in ISU history) Vroman (good post, minutes in NBA were increasing til ugly wrist injury) and Homan (plays overseas)...that team should've done some damage (other than the NIT)...Morgan also had Hilton Coliseum, and ISU's basketball reputation since the Orr days to use as a recruiting tool. Most recruits didn't care about the Eustachy scandal...when they asked Rahshon Clark about it the next year, he didn't even know who Eustachy was...to compare McCarney and Morgan is rediculous, not saying you can't appreciate them both, but comparing the two is utterly rediculous.

 

[ISUFan22]

I love lamp!

 

[Clone_12]

Are you just pointing to things and saying you love them, or do you really love lamp???

 

[cyclonenum1]

It takes a LOT longer to build a football program than a basketball program...a basketball program you just have to get a couple star players, whether they are hyped up recruits or sleepers like Wesley Johnson and surround them with role players...football is a whole different story. It took McCarney five or six years to build the football program from basically scratch. When Walden left...there was Troy Davis, a couple offensive lineman, and a bunch of slow, unathletic guys that should have been playing for UNI...that's what McCarney started with, and he had ISU's football history and facilities (at the time, which sucked) to work with...it took him a while (maybe longer than it should have) but he built us into a program that had winning records FIVE OF HIS LAST SEVEN YEARS. There is no way he can be compared to Criner or Walden...as for Morgan, as soon as he convinced the recruits to stay, his FIRST team had a lineup of Blalock (great point guard, saw time with Pistons) Stinson (Big 12 freshmen of the year, plays overseas), Sullivan (one of the best pure shooters in ISU history) Vroman (good post, minutes in NBA were increasing til ugly wrist injury) and Homan (plays overseas)...that team should've done some damage (other than the NIT)...Morgan also had Hilton Coliseum, and ISU's basketball reputation since the Orr days to use as a recruiting tool. Most recruits didn't care about the Eustachy scandal...when they asked Rahshon Clark about it the next year, he didn't even know who Eustachy was...to compare McCarney and Morgan is rediculous, not saying you can't appreciate them both, but comparing the two is utterly rediculous.

In general, I agree that it takes longer in FB than BB.

However, the trajectory of a program being built should look like what Mack Brown did at UNC (this is in an earlier post in this thread)...not like what McCarney did at ISU. Also, if you don't believe a great coach can change things quickly...you need to go look at Urban Meyer's record at the various schools he has been at...it can happen quickly.

The bottom line is that McCarney's results were nearly identical to both Criner's and Walden's from a winning percentage.

 

[Clone_12]

It CAN happen quickly...it doesn't though besides a few rarities...do you realize the talent level of McCarney's first team with Walden's players??? McCarney's overall record his last few years wasn't great, but it was a heck of a lot better then, than when he was losing with Walden's players, that were good enough to not just get beat in Walden's final year, but to get POUNDED 27-10 by UNI. That is the talent McCarney was dealing with his first couple years...plus it's never easy, but it sure is a heck of a lot less difficult to turn around a school with a bit of a football background, unlike Iowa State...McCarney was told by good coaches that Iowa State was career suicide, and he turned it into a place that fans expect success at...all while he had the 11th or 12th biggest budget in the conference to work with...I can see why people wouldn't think he was a good coach-he definately had his share of lapses on gamedays, but to say he was equal to Walden or Criner is flat out wrong...he left the program in a MUCH better place than he inherited it.

 

[jbhtexas]

I am not here to say Criner and Walden were super coaches at ISU...they were not.

However, the perception by some that McCarney is a far superior coach than either Walden or Criner is a total fallacy. The facts are that Criner lost 57% of the games he coached at ISU, Walden lost 65% of the games he coached at ISU, and McCarney lost 61% of the games he coached at ISU. Frankly, all three records are very similar...as I have pointed out many times before..

JW actually had a better conference winning % than DM. Check it out in the new ISU FB media guide...

LINK: 2007 Football Media Guide - CYCLONES.com

The bottom line is that McCarney was given a lot that his predecessors were not and he did basically the same job in terms of wins and losses. It really makes me wonder why so many of you want to lionize McCarney at the same time you are burning Walden and Criner at the stake? Why is that? It's not like McCarney wasn't given ample time to prove himself...12 years is a LONG TIME.

Yup...time to lay off burning Walden...DM did plenty of that during his 12 years. Last year, I was on the verge of writing a letter to ADJP indicating that I was going to cut all my support to the athletic department if DM continued to justify his failure by bringing up how bad things were when he took over 12 years ago.

And besides, JW did pick Florida to beat Ohio State...

 

[mike4cy]

Mac made some bad choices for asst. coaches to replace some pretty good guys that left for greener pastures. His loyalty to guys that were just not very good was his undoing. The guy never stopped trying, never did anything to embarrass the program, and seemed to really love being in Ames. Last year you could tell he knew it was all over after the Iowa game. If he had a better OL/OC asst. and a couple decent DBs he would still be at ISU.

We all make mistakes. Time to move on.

That is the best post of this whole thread!

 

[Gary_ISU]

Mac certainly enjoyed success at ISU and took us to levels we have never been to, mainly because of our poor history. But when I think about his time at ISU, the biggest thing that comes to mind is underachieving. It seems like every year we lost a couple games that kept us from being a great team and program. In 99, it was the KSU game leading 28-7 at half and then losing. That team should have been bowl eligible. In 2001, it was losing to Alabama in the Indy bowl. In 2002, it was losing to Uconn on the last home game that sent us to Boise instead of Florida. In 2003, the whole season was a failure. In 2004, it was the MU game for the Big 12 North. In 2005, it was the entire season, how we ended up 7-5 that season is amazing. We should have been at least 9-2 during the regular season. We had reached the bottom again in 2006 in my opinion. The KU game in 2006 was probably the worst football game I have ever seen.

My point is Mac was always close but could never get us over the hump. This was not going to change. He did some great things at ISU, you have to acknowledge that, but he also failed to rise to the occasion over and over again.

The other thing that bothers me is Ryan Koch. Over the last 2 years, we had no running game. Kock gets a chance with 2 games left in his career and does a great job. How come he was not given a chance to be the featured back earlier? That is just bad coaching.

 

[jbhtexas]

but to say he [DM] was equal to Walden or Criner is flat out wrong...he left the program in a MUCH better place than he inherited it.

DM inherited a team that won 0 conference games and left a team that won 1 conference game. But DM did beat UNI by 1 in his last season, whereas JW lost to UNI in his last season, so I can see how it's obvious that DM left the program in a MUCH better place...:baffled5wh:

 

[Clone_12]

Jb, were you around to see the talent level on McCarney's first team of Walden's players compared to the squad Gene is inheriting? I'm talking what he left behind for talent, not wins and losses the year before. There is a HUGE talent gap between the two, not to mention that ISU fans actually expect to win now because we have five out of the last seven years, as opposed to 2 or 3 out of the last 15 years before that...so yes, it is easy to see how he left things better than he inherited them.

 

[ISUFan22]

If you have any poo, now would be the time to fling it.