Player Attrition

[EggMcClone]

The rationalizations on this thread are some pretty outstanding work. Yeah, there's an excuse for every one of those guys about why they left or why we didn't really need them around anyway but the truth is that player turnover is possibly the biggest reason we're so bad right now.

Supposedly McDermott was the guy that was going to put a stop to what we were seeing during Eustachy and Morgan's time but that certainly hasn't happened yet.

 

[cyfan50438]

Guys that have left in the last three years:

Vette = Just left the team
Brister = Left the team in November
Taylor = Dismissed = Whereabouts unknown
McIntosh = Transferred to Div II - Augustana, Averaging 20 some points
Dunson = Transferred to Vicennes Junior College - Averaging 10 points/game
Marsden = Left the team
Taggart = Transfered to Memphis - Bench player averaging 7 points/game
Carr = Transferred to St. Joe's - Starter averaging 12 points/game
Evanovich = Transferred to Fairfield - Bench player averaging 5 points a game
Blalock = NBA D Leauge - Wouldn't matter this year anyway.
Stinson = Playing in Greece - Wouldn't matter this year
Degand = Transferred to NC State - Averaging 31 mins and 7 points a game

McIntosh, Dunson, Carr, and Degand would have brought a lot of help in the back court. Taggart and Marsden probably would have been bench players in the light of Brackins and Jubalek this year and Brackins and Steiger next year.

 

[Wesley]

None of them were as voracious as Mike. He went a million miles a minute. He pumped life into his teams. Hope he continues playing for someone.

Will went West to the D Developmental League (Sacvramento?).

 

[Prone2Clone]

Anybody know if Purdue and Iowa offered Vette out of high school? Those programs are in his rivals profile. I just wonder why he signed with Indiana State. I would have been more excited about him had he been recruited by some better programs rather than signing with a MVC school that hasn't had much success in recent years.

 

[URBCLONE]

-This is why I am against recruiting so many "projects". Just about every MBB thread on this site has a lot of talk about "developing players" and how good we will be "in a couple of years". I think we need to play to win NOW.

The bottom line is that there are precious few Iowa kids that are ready to step into a DI program and contribute immediately. We need to recruit those that can and look elsewhere to find other players that can contribute immediately!

EXACTLY!!! That is why I am leery of both Mann and Hamilton from Utah. I don't mind taking a project every once in a while, but they should be the exception and not the rule.

 

[Wesley]

Anybody know if Purdue and Iowa offered Vette out of high school? Those programs are in his rivals profile. I just wonder why he signed with Indiana State. I would have been more excited about him had he been recruited by some better programs rather than signing with a MVC school that hasn't had much success in recent years.

Thought the new Indiana State coach was from Creighton in the Omaha area. When Dana Altman took the Arkansas Suey job for a day, they mentioned the Indie State coach took his job too soon. Well, remember thant Indiana State and Creighton played at UNI and near Waverly. HJe probably saw all their games and that is where he also met McD. Hope he lands at UNI and not Iowa.

 

[ISUChippewa]

I've brought this up before, but I haven't seen too many (if any) people comment on it, but if we want our player attrition rate to slow down, then our coaching "attrition" rate needs to slow down first.

We have had four different head basketball coaches at Iowa State since Johnny Orr retired after the '93-94 season. Off the top of my head, I can't think of too many other BCS conference programs that have had that type of coaching turnover in so relatively short a time span.

Of the 12 players that were listed earlier in this thread, three of them were likely gone regardess of whether or not Morgan was retained (Carr, Stinson, and Blaylock). The other three left as a direct result of Morgan's being fired. Other people have written it already, but you really can't pin that on McD. If you want to blame anyone for that, heck, blame Jamie Pollard.

As for the others, it's unfortunate because I think there are some good players there (Dunson, possibly Vette and Brister with time, and I'll include Taylor as well, although I think with his off-court actions, he needed to go). However, it can be said that Dunson and Taylor were stop-gap measures and Vette and Brister were grade B recruits, so while I don't like attrition more than anyone else, I'm not too worried right now that losing players will be par for the course. Now, if we start losing players like Brackins and Buckley, then I'll start to get pretty worried.

 

[cyclonenum1]

You have not been impressed with a sophomores #'s. Do you want the kid to score 40 a game for you to be impressed w/ him? Brooks Mckowen is the all time leading scorer in Iowa history and I don't think he was a very impressive player. There are more to a players games than the stat line. Look at Rahshon Clark as an example of this. The kid is on a very good team against weaker competition. He doesn't need to score 30 a game. Also there is a very good chance that he doesn't play the whole game considering they are winning by a lot

Did they not play Vette when he dressed? He played above CJ when he was suited up. You don't bring in a lot of true Freshman big men into your program and give them 30 minutes a game. The ones that you do are usually pretty special players. Maybe the coaches were trying to bring him along at a steady pace so he didn't feel like he was in over his head. Maybe they were trying to get his confidence up. You nor I don't know the answer to this.

That is precisely the problem...playing "against weaker competition" in small-time Iowa HS BB on a regular basis does not typically prepare you well for the Big 12.

Playing before CJ does not impress me...frankly, I think CJ is a wasted scholarship.

I have moved around the country quite a bit and I have seen a lot of college and HS BB everywhere I have lived (IA, FL, MD, TX, LA). Twice I have seen HS players and thought that they were special enough (and young enough) for me to pass onto the ISU coaching staff in hopes that we might have a chance in recruiting them if we started early. The first was a HS sophomore I saw play in MD named Terrance Morris. He went on to play at Maryland and was in the NBA for a number of years. The second was a HS freshman that I saw play in LA named DJ Augustin. As you know, he now plays at Texas.

These kids were the dominant forces on their teams as underclassmen playing against a high level of competition. I forwarded these names because they were great players playing on great teams against great competition. I have recently seen a third kid that I am contemplating forwarding on to the staff...his name is Langston Galloway. He is a sophomore at Christian Life Academy in Baton Rouge, LA. He is a great kid, a great player, and he plays on a great team. My only reservation is that he is playing most of his games against smaller school talent in LA.

 

[ISUFan22]

So what about a guy like Lucca...does Greg get some points for that?

I mean, of any kid that would have an excuse to leave, a real solid excuse - it's Lucca.

And here the kid is, going to stay whether he plays at all this year or not. Period. Done. He's a Cyclone. Credits the coaching staff for a lot of that.

What about that?

 

[Clones85']

That is precisely the problem...playing "against weaker competition" in small-time Iowa HS BB on a regular basis does not typically prepare you well for the Big 12.

Playing before CJ does not impress me...frankly, I think CJ is a wasted scholarship.

I have moved around the country quite a bit and I have seen a lot of college and HS BB everywhere I have lived (IA, FL, MD, TX, LA). Twice I have seen HS players and thought that they were special enough (and young enough) for me to pass onto the ISU coaching staff in hopes that we might have a chance in recruiting them if we started early. The first was a HS sophomore I saw play in MD named Terrance Morris. He went on to play at Maryland and was in the NBA for a number of years. The second was a HS freshman that I saw play in LA named DJ Augustin. As you know, he now plays at Texas.

These kids were the dominant forces on their teams as underclassmen playing against a high level of competition. I forwarded these names because they were great players playing on great teams against great competition. I have recently seen a third kid that I am contemplating forwarding on to the staff...his name is Langston Galloway. He is a sophomore at Christian Life Academy in Baton Rouge, LA. He is a great kid, a great player, and he plays on a great team. My only reservation is that he is playing most of his games against smaller school talent in LA.

Your reasoning astounds me! We should only go after players that are top 20 in the nation, and play against 4-A, 5-A competition. Everyone else stinks.

Iowa HS does not prepare you for Big 12 competition? Your right, Iowa Falls did nothing to prepare Nick Collison for Kansas. They are 2-A you know. Look at his stats as a sophomore and look at Dykstra's. Look pretty comparable to me. We are not going to have the quantity of players in Iowa that are Big 12 ready b/c we don't have the same population as Texas, IL, etc. But there are players that can come in and make an impact right away. I don't care if they are from small town Iowa, freezing Alaska, or big cities in Texas. Talent is Talent, and Dykstra has talent

 

[CyinCo]

Vette's family and Vette have only had good things to say about ISU and the program and Coach Mac. Vette leaving is because Vette wanted to for PERSONAL reasons. I don't see how this falls on Mac at all. The only players that fall on Mac are the players HE recruited and left. Everyone knows that in year one, Mac had an empty cupboard so he brought in so-so JC talent to fill holes. How can fans expect that he was going to keep those kids. They were JC misfit leftovers that were passed over by everyone else. Guys like McIntosh just weren't going to cut it once talented freshmen like Garrett got to campus. Heck, even Petersen is better than C Mac. Taylor brought about his own demise. If Coach doesn't get rid of Mike Taylor, then he compromises his morals for the sake of winning. Ross Marsden left on his own accord as well, like Vette. Personally, I'll take AT over RM anyday.

I don't see a problem. I think the situation sucks but I don't see a problem with the coaching staff. Some players will leave. We just hope the good ones stay. Now, if guys like Wes or Craig start leaving because "they didn't like playing at ISU". Then we have a problem.

 

[cyclonenum1]

So what about a guy like Lucca...does Greg get some points for that?

I mean, of any kid that would have an excuse to leave, a real solid excuse - it's Lucca.

And here the kid is, going to stay whether he plays at all this year or not. Period. Done. He's a Cyclone. Credits the coaching staff for a lot of that.

What about that?

Just to clarify...I have not knocked McDermott for player attrition. Frankly, it is a fact of life at major college BB programs...nearly everyone has to deal with the problem.

Someone earlier said coaches that we are competing for recruits with would use our attrition list against us...I don't think so because chances are good they have a similar list!

 

[cyclonenum1]

Your reasoning astounds me! We should only go after players that are top 20 in the nation, and play against 4-A, 5-A competition. Everyone else stinks.

Iowa HS does not prepare you for Big 12 competition? Your right, Iowa Falls did nothing to prepare Nick Collison for Kansas. They are 2-A you know. Look at his stats as a sophomore and look at Dykstra's. Look pretty comparable to me. We are not going to have the quantity of players in Iowa that are Big 12 ready b/c we don't have the same population as Texas, IL, etc. But there are players that can come in and make an impact right away. I don't care if they are from small town Iowa, freezing Alaska, or big cities in Texas. Talent is Talent, and Dykstra has talent

Point 1 - I never said "everyone else stinks" and I never quantified that we should go after only top 20 players but, clearly, we need to recruit better players and more of them than we are currently doing. It is patently clear that there is a direct correlation between signing the top ranked talent and winning Championships (Conference and National). Our most recent BB success came while we had a McDonald's HS All American on our roster...a coincidence...I THINK NOT! Why are KU and Texas the cream of the conference nearly every year...BINGO...they recruit better talent! And yes, I do think playing at a bigger HS affords you the chance to develop your game to a much greater degree than playing at a smaller HS where you can "coast" much of the time.

Point 2 - Yes, the level of competition in Iowa HS BB does not prepare you for playing Big 12 competition and making an immediate impact. I find your use of Nick Collison to buttress your argument to be astounding...he is clearly the exception rather than the rule with respect to kids coming out of Iowa HS BB.

Point 3 - I agree totally, Iowa does not and will not produce the volume of talent that other states do. I also believe that Iowa has and will produce some players that can make an immediate impact but, unfortunately, it is a short list every year and, in fact, there are none in many years. Which begs my question...why are we recruiting so many Iowa kids every year? I certainly hope that Dykstra is the next Nick Collison and not the next CJ...and with the kid being in 10th grade in HS neither you nor I can know which it will be at this point in time.

 

[Aclone]

The only reason I'm concerned about it is because the NCAA will be whacking us with the "percent graduated" stick again in a few years.

We had two coaching transitions in a short time, Mac came in and attempted to stop the bleeding--which paid off with Wesley. Not so much otherwise. No complaints here.

 

[ISUFan22]

I never mentioned you or anyone else in my post Cyclone#1.

It's just very interesting so many will be critical of Greg for the mass exodus yet I don't see any giving him credit for keeping the one guy that really had a damn good reason to skate.

 

[Knownothing]

Playing before CJ does not impress me...frankly, I think CJ is a wasted scholarship.

I have moved around the country quite a bit and I have seen a lot of college and HS BB everywhere I have lived (IA, FL, MD, TX, LA). Twice I have seen HS players and thought that they were special enough (and young enough) for me to pass onto the ISU coaching staff in hopes that we might have a chance in recruiting them if we started early. The first was a HS sophomore I saw play in MD named Terrance Morris. He went on to play at Maryland and was in the NBA for a number of years. The second was a HS freshman that I saw play in LA named DJ Augustin. As you know, he now plays at Texas.

These kids were the dominant forces on their teams as underclassmen playing against a high level of competition. I forwarded these names because they were great players playing on great teams against great competition. I have recently seen a third kid that I am contemplating forwarding on to the staff...his name is Langston Galloway. He is a sophomore at Christian Life Academy in Baton Rouge, LA. He is a great kid, a great player, and he plays on a great team. My only reservation is that he is playing most of his games against smaller school talent in LA.

No offense to your post but it's not like you are identifying unknown players. These coaches know about them when they are in 8th grade now. Augustine was known about when he was like 12 years old. The kid at Christian Life Academy is there for a reason. It's not like he attends Lincoln High School in Louisianna. Trust me if he plays at a school that ends in the word "academy" the coaches know who he is and possibly where he will be going to college.

 

[CTTB78]

I think everyone agrees that this long of a list of players leaving ISU is not good for the reputation of the program.
However, saying that it is ridiculous to blame GMc for any of these guys leaving (not even one) is about as ridiculous as saying-- he will not responsible in any way for guys who leave in the future.

 

[cyclonenum1]

No offense to your post but it's not like you are identifying unknown players. These coaches know about them when they are in 8th grade now. Augustine was known about when he was like 12 years old. The kid at Christian Life Academy is there for a reason. It's not like he attends Lincoln High School in Louisianna. Trust me if he plays at a school that ends in the word "academy" the coaches know who he is and possibly where he will be going to college.

None taken. However, these kids were not "known" on a widespread basis when I let the ISU staff know about them...Morris was a first year starter as a soph and Augustin was a first year starter as a frosh. These kids were not getting LeBron James type publicity at this age for certain.

My real point was to explain what I think we should be looking for...talented kids from successful HS programs that are playing against high caliber competition on a regular basis. Those were the common threads with both of these kids.

As for Galloway, had you ever heard his name? Is he on some top player listing from one of these recruiting services? I wouldn't know as I don't subscribe to any...I like to watch the game more than I like to read about it. I know his parents and his coach. The kid is a quality kid from a quality family...he is not the product of a "basketball mill academy" as you insinuate. He was a small role player on a strong CLA team last year and this is his first year as a starter. It is my understanding that he is just now starting to get some interest from some college programs. At any rate, he is the type of player we desperately need...a quick 6-3 guard that can play 1 or 2, can handle, can distribute, and can shoot.

 

[cy1225]

Put the players we lost last year on this team and we have just one...maybe 2 loses and a chance to get in the NIT.

It would be real swell if we could stop the bleeding.

Maybe not the staff but certainly Pollard is accountable.

 

[ajk4st8]

I never mentioned you or anyone else in my post Cyclone#1.

It's just very interesting so many will be critical of Greg for the mass exodus yet I don't see any giving him credit for keeping the one guy that really had a damn good reason to skate.

Well he did stay, but you have to account for him not playing for this year too. Im sure there were lots of players with Luccas talent out there that did NOT have to sit. So yes we did get Lucca, but what does it matter if he is sitting when a lot of similar players would be playing.

Just to play devils advocate