Time for a Real Discussion About Caitlin Clark

[clonedude]

This has always been the case. Really, REALLY good offensive player with good instincts and great range. Volume shooter. Not an elite all-around “player” and never has attempted to be. And the GOAT stuff is mind-boggling, disingenuous, and a mountain of virtue signaling. Much of it fueled by the time in history we live in.

I’ve always maintained on here that she’s one of the best long range shooters I’ve seen, and an amazing passer too.

But she is not even close to the best all around women’s basketball player. Doesn’t play defense and has no mid range game to speak of.

 

[Cyhig]

Here are the leading all time interception throwers:
Favre
Blanda
Tarkenton
Manning
Marino

All time NBA turnover leaders:
Lebron James
Russell Westbrook
Karl Malone
John Stockton
Kobe Bryant

Your argument is ****.

Wait... a player who plays in their league a long, long time will rack up more interceptions and turnovers? Huh. Who would had thought,,,,,

 

[Cyhig]

I said in a given year.

Ok. Karl Malone, who leads the NBA in all time turnovers, averaged 3.1 turnovers per game. I don't see using your logic

 

[3TrueFans]

Ok. Karl Malone, who leads the NBA in all time turnovers, averaged 3.1 turnovers per game. I don't see using your logic

Sometimes great players turn the ball over a lot, that’s the end of the statement. Do with it what you will.

 

[Cyhig]

He said "for a given year" not "over a career." Lol.

In 2023 the top-10 in turnovers for the season included names like Doncic, Wemby, Giannis, Lebron, Durant...

Sometimes great players turn the ball over a lot, that’s the end of the statement. Do with it what you will.

And sometimes we can use real metrics to draw conclusions. Such as assist to turnover ratio. If the "great player" has the ball a lot, they will make more turnovers and assists. But the ratio can be used to better illustrate the quality of the passer.

Doncic lead the league with 4.0 turnovers per game, but also has 9.8 assists per game. That's 2.45 assists per turnover. CC lead NCAAW with 4.7 turnovers per game and averaged 8.9 assists per game. That's 1.89 assist per turnover. That's what most people would consider to be average to below average

We can apply this principle to points per game. Obviously the more times one shoots, the more points they will score. FG% can be used to better illustrate the accuracy of the shooter while eliminating the volume of shots from the equation.

 

[3TrueFans]

And sometimes we can use real metrics to draw conclusions. Such as assist to turnover ratio. If the "great player" has the ball a lot, they will make more turnovers and assists. But the ratio can be used to better illustrate the quality of the passer.

Doncic lead the league with 4.0 turnovers per game, but also has 9.8 assists per game. That's 2.45 assists per turnover. CC lead NCAAW with 4.7 turnovers per game and averaged 8.9 assists per game. That's 1.89 assist per turnover. That's what most people would consider to be average to below average

We can apply this principle to points per game. Obviously the more times one shoots, the more points they will score. FG% can be used to better illustrate the accuracy of the shooter while eliminating the volume of shots from the equation.

Or if you want to put it succinctly, "Sometimes great players turn the ball over a lot."

 

[1UNI2ISU]

I'm guessing Iowa was cool with the turnovers while she was literally responsible for, minimum, 6000 points in 4 years.

Quit digging.

 

[kcdc4isu]

Or if you want to put it succinctly, "Sometimes good players turn the ball over a lot."

FIFY

 

[Cyhig]

Or if you want to put it succinctly, "Sometimes great players turn the ball over a lot."

Yes... which is why we use ratios/percentages to eliminate the volume. Basic statistical analysis

 

[Cyched]

Can't believe there is still so much activity on this.

Simple for me - will never root for her as she's a Hawkeye. But also no longer pay attention because she's not playing for Iowa anymore. She's just another has-been Hawk to me that is out of sight, out of mind.

It’s taken an interesting turn. Bumped by ISU fans who are apparently still following her. Who then proceed to get into arguments with ISU fans simping for her. Unholy combination.

 

[HFCS]

Here are the leading all time interception throwers:
Favre
Blanda
Tarkenton
Manning
Marino

All time NBA turnover leaders:
Lebron James
Russell Westbrook
Karl Malone
John Stockton
Kobe Bryant

Your argument is ****.

Total turnovers is always going to be all time legends.

Turnovers per game is a mix of legendary players and just inefficient players for all time lists and individual seasons, but it also trends more toward great players. The thing is it's packed pretty tight. Donicic had a top 3 statistical season (he was #3 in MVP voting) and is #1 in turnovers per game at 4.0. The second place guy is Wemby at 3.7 per game...close.

If Clark averages 2-3 more turnovers a game than any other player you can't just write that off to greatness because that doesn't happen with great players. It'll be very interesting to see how her turnovers end up, if it's just the same as the other 5-10 best ball dominant players it's a non factor, if it's 2-3 higher that's definitely not winning basketball.

 

[RedDog]

She is definitely a goat. A cashier at a Casey's Store I don't know, asked me if I watched the game.

Never in my life has a stranger asked me if I watched an MJ game, LJ game, etc, etc, etc.

 

[ClubCy]

It’s taken an interesting turn. Bumped by ISU fans who are apparently still following her. Who then proceed to get into arguments with ISU fans simping for her. Unholy combination.

I don’t think it’s simping for her, it’s more calling out weirdo behavior by the same 5-6 posters who clearly despise her. The same 5-6 posters who breakdown every single game since last November (but make it a point to say they DO NOT CARE about her). Thought it would end when she left Iowa but I guess not.

 

[Cyballzz]

She is definitely a goat. A cashier at a Casey's Store I don't know, asked me if I watched the game.

Never in my life has a stranger asked me if I watched an MJ game, LJ game, etc, etc, etc.

Wow... media members really don't make **** if Keith is having to work at Casey's.

 

[Cyinthenorth]

I’ve always maintained on here that she’s one of the best long range shooters I’ve seen, and an amazing passer too.

But she is not even close to the best all around women’s basketball player. Doesn’t play defense and has no mid range game to speak of.

Who needs a mid range game when you can shoot logo 3's?

 

[CRcyclone6]

Can threads be put on ignore?

 

[swiacy]

I have been waiting to see how she would produce against older, stronger and athletically faster women. About as I expected which was that she would struggle against the physicality. I did not anticipate the change in officiating which really allowed for more aggressive contact. I expect that she will adjust as time goes on but it may just come down to her adding muscle and gaining strength. I read something that there has only been two rookie WNBA players average 20 points in their rookie year so I use that as a standard. As far as I know she has never asked for all the overblown hype or have I seen or heard her make any negative Iowa State comments so I am neutral on the whole scene but the expectations by fans, media and corporations may not be in her best interest.

 

[Cyinthenorth]

I have been waiting to see how she would produce against older, stronger and athletically faster women. About as I expected which was that she would struggle against the physicality. I did not anticipate the change in officiating which really allowed for more aggressive contact. I expect that she will adjust as time goes on but it may just come down to her adding muscle and gaining strength. I read something that there has only been two rookie WNBA players average 20 points in their rookie year so I use that as a standard. As far as I know she has never asked for all the overblown hype or have I seen or heard her make any negative Iowa State comments so I am neutral on the whole scene but the expectations by fans, media and corporations may not be in her best interest.

You must have missed the shot she took at ISU when asked about Tyrese shortly after the draft

 

[chadly82]

Ok.....who revived this? ugh

 

[Cyhig]

Or if you want to put it succinctly, "Sometimes great players turn the ball over a lot."

Final thought on this for you: Shaquille O’Neil was generally in the top 15 each year in made free throws. With your team up 2, 10 seconds left and have the ball, would you leave Shaq in the game? After all, he is a top 15 player in made free throws. Can’t imagine anyone else you’d want to send to the free throw line in that situation.

That’s why percentages and ratios are more valuable than volume