My former company

CloneIce

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2006
37,774
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Our local state and county beef producers and pork producers ect associations in my opinion do a **** poor job of actually educating anyone. The majority of their events are in small towns that already understand their message. The gov. imo needs to make it mandatory that people take some sort of class in school that talks about modern day production agriculture and our food supply.

My other idea that is completely impossible but something fun to think of is all farmers get together and decide that we are only selling our livestock/ grain ect to companies that will export it. For one year the US is without our produce. See how important people think agriculture is after that, few people starve to death is worth it imo.

Honestly, I think that is a bad idea, unless you just want the "government" to show them propaganda. The more you show people about industrial food production, the more you will gross them out and have them looking to get their meat (this goes for about any type of large scale food production) from a different source. Its almost better that people don't know where it comes from, as the process is certainly not an appetizing one. Now, if you just educate people on food safety, thats a different story, but I wouldn't get too in-depth into the production process.

I know the last paragraph is hypothetical and not possible, but it would probably be the worst marketing idea I've ever seen. Alienate all of your customers to prove a point? And don't kid yourself, the vast majority of people in America still eat meat, and eat a ton of it. You don't want to **** off your customers to prove a point to the minority of people who won't care or change their opinion in the first place.
 

jrcisu79

Member
Nov 28, 2006
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There seems to be a weird detachment in this country about where our food comes from. I personally have no problems with killing, cleaning and eating meat. I think as Iowans were all closer to where a majority of the food comes from, and we tend to be more level headed about these issues. My concern is what do use a substitute, soy, give me a break. How much processing do you have to do to soy to get it to resemble meat. Since when did we start thinking that hamburger was ground ribeyes, its all the scraps. Get over it, I'm still gonna eat it.
 

colbycheese

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Jun 11, 2010
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Its similiar to african americans not eating pork. Their culture somewhere along the line decided that its unclean and not healthy. They passed that down to their children and so on. Now you will be hard pressed to find any of them willing to eat pork.

Obviously you've never been to a "pig pickin'" in North Carolina or any Southern barbecue restaurant. All of the best ones serve barbecue pork and have African American chefs/owners.

I think what you're trying to refer to is people of the Muslim and Jewish faiths who won't eat pork because that was written into the old testament. I'm not sure why, 'cause I love me some dead pig - especially if it comes in pork chop on a stick form covered in Lawry's!
 

BKLYNCyclone

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2007
2,122
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Twin Cities, MN
this has nothing to do with what the cows are fed.

Correct. It has everything to do with how beef is purchased though. I know that what I've purchased is direct from farmer, to butcher, to me. Use a reputable butcher and all is well. No pink slime for me. (just tough extra chewy grass fed steaks...:sad:)

Point being, that if people buy direct from farmers everyone benefits. I can't stand the water injected crap they sell at grocery stores.

Also, I understand that agribusiness is a huge corporation (and has all the tendencies and bureaucracy that come with large organizations, think Religious institutions, large industry such as oil, tobacco industry, large public school systems such as NYC, and Unions, all of which suffer from, "that's how it's always been done" syndrome). Just because something has been done safely for 20+ years, doesn't mean it's okay to hide the fact from the consumer. People want to know what they are buying. Most will accept it and continue to buy it because it makes economic sense to them. (see hot dogs and chicken mcnuggets) But others, who don't want to eat processed foods, have the right to know there are other things inside their hamburger. Food chains (restaurants and groceries) don't want to have to disclose Ammonia in their beef, so they opted to find other sources.

The market is changing, big time. Agribusiness needs to figure out new ways to adapt itself or it will be in trouble. The "we've been doing it for 20 years", and "this makes processing cheaper and the product more affordable" lines won't work forever. Educating consumers is one way, but I'm not sure telling people you put ammonia hydroxide into ground beef to keep it safe is all that effective of a message. I understand that making a product affordable is key in terms of expanding their market and industry, but a lot is also that they have a lot invested in this method of production and don't want to have to change it.

It's a matter of adapting, and I'm not sure Agribusiness is willing as an industry. Farmers have a better chance, but it really depends. I know that if I had a farm I'd be converting to organic, or raising higher end pork or beef or even poultry (birds freak me out). La Quercia is a prime example of this in Iowa. While I don't believe they are farmers, they are dependent on artisan farms in Iowa for their pork. They make the best prosciutto outside italy, and the best I've ever had personally. Stuff was in high demand in NYC, and rightfully so. (Can't find it in Minneapolis where I usually shop, killing me). Berkshire pork, high end american kobe beef, even grass fed beef are growing markets. Personally, I'd raise organic greens... $5+ a lb for mesclun mix/arrugala/spinach seems like it'd have a pretty good profit margin...

Then again, I'm an architect, not a farmer... However, being an ag school, we get a lot of ag people defending everything and not thinking about it from a disassociated consumer's point of view. I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents since I only look at it from the consumer standpoint.
 
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peteypie

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2007
6,548
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Correct. It has everything to do with how beef is purchased though. I know that what I've purchased is direct from farmer, to butcher, to me. Use a reputable butcher and all is well. No pink slime for me. (just tough extra chewy grass fed steaks...:sad:)

Point being, that if people buy direct from farmers everyone benefits. I can't stand the water injected crap they sell at grocery stores.

Also, I understand that agribusiness is a huge corporation (and has all the tendencies and bureaucracy that come with large organizations, think Religious institutions, large industry such as oil, tobacco industry, large public school systems such as NYC, and Unions, all of which suffer from, "that's how it's always been done" syndrome). Just because something has been done safely for 20+ years, doesn't mean it's okay to hide the fact from the consumer. People want to know what they are buying. Most will accept it and continue to buy it because it makes economic sense to them. (see hot dogs and chicken mcnuggets) But others, who don't want to eat processed foods, have the right to know there are other things inside their hamburger. Food chains (restaurants and groceries) don't want to have to disclose Ammonia in their beef, so they opted to find other sources.

The market is changing, big time. Agribusiness needs to figure out new ways to adapt itself or it will be in trouble. The "we've been doing it for 20 years", and "this makes processing cheaper and the product more affordable" lines won't work forever. Educating consumers is one way, but I'm not sure telling people you put ammonia hydroxide into ground beef to keep it safe is all that effective of a message. I understand that making a product affordable is key in terms of expanding their market and industry, but a lot is also that they have a lot invested in this method of production and don't want to have to change it.

It's a matter of adapting, and I'm not sure Agribusiness is willing as an industry. Farmers have a better chance, but it really depends. I know that if I had a farm I'd be converting to organic, or raising higher end pork or beef or even poultry (birds freak me out). La Quercia is a prime example of this in Iowa. While I don't believe they are farmers, they are dependent on artisan farms in Iowa for their pork. They make the best prosciutto outside italy, and the best I've ever had personally. Stuff was in high demand in NYC, and rightfully so. (Can't find it in Minneapolis where I usually shop, killing me). Berkshire pork, high end american kobe beef, even grass fed beef are growing markets. Personally, I'd raise organic greens... $5+ a lb for mesclun mix/arrugala/spinach seems like it'd have a pretty good profit margin...

Then again, I'm an architect, not a farmer... However, being an ag school, we get a lot of ag people defending everything and not thinking about it from a disassociated consumer's point of view. I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents since I only look at it from the consumer standpoint.


Water injected crap? I don't know of any meat that is only injected with water. Most is injected with a "brine". Yes, mostly salt water, but it enhances the flavor greatly. And Most of the stuff sold in grocery stores is not brine injected. If you are getting it from a Meat department, it is not injected. Only if you are buying it from the shelves and it is in a airtight bag may it be injected. And if it is injected, it will clearly state that on the label.

I'm not sure where you think you are buying water injected stuff. So thank god you are not a farmer, because you are not very informed
 
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oldman

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Nov 5, 2009
8,771
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So, I'd like to know who coined the term "pink slime." And what was it called before that?
 

rebecacy

Well-Known Member
Jan 31, 2007
4,507
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Correct. It has everything to do with how beef is purchased though. I know that what I've purchased is direct from farmer, to butcher, to me. Use a reputable butcher and all is well. No pink slime for me. (just tough extra chewy grass fed steaks...:sad:)

Point being, that if people buy direct from farmers everyone benefits. I can't stand the water injected crap they sell at grocery stores.

Also, I understand that agribusiness is a huge corporation (and has all the tendencies and bureaucracy that come with large organizations, think Religious institutions, large industry such as oil, tobacco industry, large public school systems such as NYC, and Unions, all of which suffer from, "that's how it's always been done" syndrome). Just because something has been done safely for 20+ years, doesn't mean it's okay to hide the fact from the consumer. People want to know what they are buying. Most will accept it and continue to buy it because it makes economic sense to them. (see hot dogs and chicken mcnuggets) But others, who don't want to eat processed foods, have the right to know there are other things inside their hamburger. Food chains (restaurants and groceries) don't want to have to disclose Ammonia in their beef, so they opted to find other sources.

The market is changing, big time. Agribusiness needs to figure out new ways to adapt itself or it will be in trouble. The "we've been doing it for 20 years", and "this makes processing cheaper and the product more affordable" lines won't work forever. Educating consumers is one way, but I'm not sure telling people you put ammonia hydroxide into ground beef to keep it safe is all that effective of a message. I understand that making a product affordable is key in terms of expanding their market and industry, but a lot is also that they have a lot invested in this method of production and don't want to have to change it.

It's a matter of adapting, and I'm not sure Agribusiness is willing as an industry. Farmers have a better chance, but it really depends. I know that if I had a farm I'd be converting to organic, or raising higher end pork or beef or even poultry (birds freak me out). La Quercia is a prime example of this in Iowa. While I don't believe they are farmers, they are dependent on artisan farms in Iowa for their pork. They make the best prosciutto outside italy, and the best I've ever had personally. Stuff was in high demand in NYC, and rightfully so. (Can't find it in Minneapolis where I usually shop, killing me). Berkshire pork, high end american kobe beef, even grass fed beef are growing markets. Personally, I'd raise organic greens... $5+ a lb for mesclun mix/arrugala/spinach seems like it'd have a pretty good profit margin...

Then again, I'm an architect, not a farmer... However, being an ag school, we get a lot of ag people defending everything and not thinking about it from a disassociated consumer's point of view. I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents since I only look at it from the consumer standpoint.
what about "it's safe" do you not get??? we don't put ammonia hydroxide into ground beef.
 

bringmagicback

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Dec 3, 2009
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So, I'd like to know who coined the term "pink slime." And what was it called before that?

It is actually called lean finely textured beef. The slime thing is just to create outrage. Here is an article about it.....I would link it but you have to have a membership to read it.

What's in a name?" the lovesick Juliet sighed from her balcony. "That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet."
My guess is that the beleaguered executives at Beef Products, Inc. (BPI) would beg to differ with this famous damsel in distress.
Given their costly decision this week to suspend operations at three of four plants in the face of involuntary and hateful rebranding, some may be surly enough to call for the revocation of Shakespeare's poetic license.
What's in a name? If the choice is between "lean finely textured beef" and "pink slime," the wrong moniker could mean a major crisis in consumer confidence, disruptive market volatility and huge economic losses.
I suspect a few food police zealots might agree but insist on different consequences of a misleading title, implications like endangered standards of public health and unchecked corporate fraud.
Yes, Miss Capulet, names do matter. If only you and Romeo could stop holding hands long enough to assess the March madness of lean finely textured beef versus pink slime, that inescapable fact of life would become as obvious as troublesome in-laws.
I've been around the block enough times to know the value of both positive and negative name-calling. Unfortunately, it's a time-honored sport.
Long before the science of debate or stupid rules of logic, mankind proved master of the hurled invective, the self-serving label long on emotional impact and short on messy reasoning.
All the great political strategists of our day like David Plouffe and Karl Rove are keenly aware of what's at stake in the name game. That's why "revenue enhancers" often take the place of "taxes," "pro choice" substitutes for "abortion rights," "weapons of mass destruction" stands for "unilateral intervention," and Obamacare replaces "affordable health reform."
There's no use in being coy about how we're wired for self-serving characterization, how we tend to depict situations in ways that will serve larger agendas and nurture approved perceptions.
I certainly don't see anything innocent about the way BPI refers to its long-used and previously well-accepted product as "lean finely texture beef." As euphemisms go, surely this is a fine specimen. Its no-nonsense calling card of LFTB is even better.
Calling the stuff "residual scraps of fatty trim processed and chemically treated with ammonia" may be closer to the truth, but it doesn't do much in moving it out the front door. While truth in advertising is important, honesty without a touch of make-up can preclude the very need of advertising.
Yet if LFTB is somewhat gilded by business hype, I think it is grounded far more in reality than so-called "pink slime." Like the worst student in the class who gets a few points for placing the correct date on his paper, the ground beef filler is correctly described as pink. Beyond that token, such name-calling is sophomoric, sensational and scientifically unfounded.
While those first two judgments are obvious, let me say a few words about how the pink slime activists have either ignored or misused the science surrounding the safety of this product in use since the early 1980s. To my knowledge, there has never been a specific study impugning LFTB. Furthermore, USDA continues to endorse the absolute safety of the product.
I've received some thoughtful blogs from readers who seriously question the long-term ramifications of ammonia-treated meat. There are always unresolved questions in scientific inquiry, conclusions are always provisional, and real consensus is essentially a work in progress.
Having said that, I think the practical world demands that we respect USDA as the active sheriff in charge of monitoring the best science supporting food safety.
Does that mean government scientists are always right? Does that mean that we should turn a deaf ear to sound research that suggests contrary ideas? Of course not.
But it does mean that producers, processors and consumers all need a standard bearer to uphold, defend and apply the best food safety science available. USDA may be far from perfect, and the department occasionally sways in the political wind. Yet it's the best arbitrator we've got.
I only wish Ag Secretary Tom Vilsack would be more forceful in denouncing the name of "pink slime." His decision to give school districts the option of purchasing government ground beef with or without LFTB struck me as transparently political. While giving lip service to the safety of the additive, this unnecessary shift in policy was almost like whispering off-camera "we don't like the stuff either."
Did Washington ambivalence play a role in triggering the stampede of major retailers (i.e., Kroger, Safeway, Supervalu Stores, Stop & Shop, Food Lion, and others) away from LFTB?
Although most of the crazy blame goes to the media circus and a social network feeding frenzy, USDA could have been much stronger in calling the best-known rose of meat safety by its real name.
 

BKLYNCyclone

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Sep 16, 2007
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Twin Cities, MN
Water injected crap? I don't know of any meat that is only injected with water. Most is injected with a "brine". Yes, mostly salt water, but it enhances the flavor greatly. And Most of the stuff sold in grocery stores is not brine injected. If you are getting it from a Meat department, it is not injected. Only if you are buying it from the shelves and it is in a airtight bag may it be injected. And if it is injected, it will clearly state that on the label.

I'm not sure where you think you are buying water injected stuff. So thank god you are not a farmer, because you are not very informed

Fine, you're correct... it's brine injected (my bad on only calling it water when water only makes up 95% of the brine (or more). And I'll clarify that, yes, I'm talking about the packaged crap at the grocery store (or walmart). I agree that if you buy your meat from the counter you're a lot better off (especially at Fareway who has a great butcher department).

Glad you missed the point.
 

BKLYNCyclone

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Sep 16, 2007
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Twin Cities, MN
what about "it's safe" do you not get??? we don't put ammonia hydroxide into ground beef.

From BPIs website: (sorry, it's ammonia gas that reacts with the beef to create ammonia hydroxide, got me...)

Beef Products Inc. - Quality Start To Finish

"pH Enhancement

Another important innovation is BPI's pH enhancement process, which relies upon slightly increasing the level of ammonium hydroxide already present in beef in order to elevate its pH. By combining a very small amount (measured in parts per million) of ammonia gas with the naturally occurring moisture in beef, we produce ammonium hydroxide. Ammonium hydroxide is naturally found in beef and used in the processing of numerous foods, such as baked goods, cheeses, gelatins, chocolate, caramels, and puddings. One result of this food safety system is the dramatic reduction in the number of potential pathogens that may be present in foods, such as E. coli O157:H7."

What is most ironic is the "institutionalized company men/women" that preach this crap and look for the smallest details so they can ignore the actual point about agribusiness being unable/unwilling to adapt to the market... Change is scary (i.e., expensive) I guess.
 

ISUAgronomist

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Nov 5, 2009
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From BPIs website: (sorry, it's ammonia gas that reacts with the beef to create ammonia hydroxide, got me...)

Beef Products Inc. - Quality Start To Finish

"pH Enhancement

Another important innovation is BPI's pH enhancement process, which relies upon slightly increasing the level of ammonium hydroxide already present in beef in order to elevate its pH. By combining a very small amount (measured in parts per million) of ammonia gas with the naturally occurring moisture in beef, we produce ammonium hydroxide. Ammonium hydroxide is naturally found in beef and used in the processing of numerous foods, such as baked goods, cheeses, gelatins, chocolate, caramels, and puddings. One result of this food safety system is the dramatic reduction in the number of potential pathogens that may be present in foods, such as E. coli O157:H7."

What is most ironic is the "institutionalized company men/women" that preach this crap and look for the smallest details so they can ignore the actual point about agribusiness being unable/unwilling to adapt to the market... Change is scary (i.e., expensive) I guess.

These processes are adaptions to the market. People have demanded large quantities of safe food to eat. The businesses are providing that.
 
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peteypie

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Jun 20, 2007
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Fine, you're correct... it's brine injected (my bad on only calling it water when water only makes up 95% of the brine (or more). And I'll clarify that, yes, I'm talking about the packaged crap at the grocery store (or walmart). I agree that if you buy your meat from the counter you're a lot better off (especially at Fareway who has a great butcher department).

Glad you missed the point.

Nope, I got your point. You want to argue that your grass fed crap that taste way worse than any injected meat is somehow supiorior. Looking at it through a very select set of glasses saying that only buying it directly from the farmer and cutting it up at your local butcher is the best thing to do. Let me inform you that it is impossible to do this for everyone.

And then you perpetuate the situation by saying that the meat industry fails to adapt to the market. It is ill-informed consumers like you that are making this seem unsafe, when it is actually much safer than the ground beef you get at your local butcher. I'm sure he didn't test for e-coli O157:H7 that could kill you while big meat industries do test for, and also in the process of making "pink slime" this e-coli is killed. But keep looking at it from your biased point of view.....That is what is killing the meat industry
 
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CykoAGR

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Dec 16, 2008
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Nope, I got your point. You want to argue that your grass fed crap that taste way worse than any injected meat is somehow supiorior. Looking at it through a very select set of glasses saying that only buying it directly from the farmer and cutting it up at your local butcher is the best thing to do. Let me inform you that it is impossible to do this for everyone.

And then you perpetuate the situation by saying that the meat industry fails to adapt to the market. It is ill-informed consumers like you that are making this seem unsafe, when it is actually much safer than the ground beef you get at your local butcher. I'm sure he didn't test for e-coli O157:H7 that could kill you while big meat industries do test for, and also in the process of making "pink slime" this e-coli is killed. But keep looking at it from your biased point of view.....That is what is killing the meat industry

You are correct here. The "problem" is that the average consumer expects the "fresh" food that they buy such as meat in this case to be meat with no added chemicals or preservatives. Because of the way that our society is configured where the vast majority of the population lives in a metropolitan area they do not have access to farm fresh beef/pork/chicken from their local buthcher. It just isnt possible. So in order for products to be safe to eat (ie no bacteria that will make people sick) the meat has to be treated in some fashion otherwise it will almost certianly be infected with low levels of bacteria before it gets to a store.

What I am trying to get at is that the majority of the population need to get food from a supermarket. In order for that supermarket to provide the food in a safe form specific measures of preservation IS REQUIRED. This is never the message that comes from stupid people who make movies like FOOD INC or coin terms like "Pink Slime" these people dont have a clue what is required to provide them with a product that is safe to consume they just see a process that they dont like and then spew BS and with media the way it is today things go viral.

BTW I'm agreeing with you here I just sound like I'm not :rolleyes:
 

peteypie

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Jun 20, 2007
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You are correct here. The "problem" is that the average consumer expects the "fresh" food that they buy such as meat in this case to be meat with no added chemicals or preservatives. Because of the way that our society is configured where the vast majority of the population lives in a metropolitan area they do not have access to farm fresh beef/pork/chicken from their local buthcher. It just isnt possible. So in order for products to be safe to eat (ie no bacteria that will make people sick) the meat has to be treated in some fashion otherwise it will almost certianly be infected with low levels of bacteria before it gets to a store.

What I am trying to get at is that the majority of the population need to get food from a supermarket. In order for that supermarket to provide the food in a safe form specific measures of preservation IS REQUIRED. This is never the message that comes from stupid people who make movies like FOOD INC or coin terms like "Pink Slime" these people dont have a clue what is required to provide them with a product that is safe to consume they just see a process that they dont like and then spew BS and with media the way it is today things go viral.

BTW I'm agreeing with you here I just sound like I'm not :rolleyes:

10000% agree
 

weR138

Well-Known Member
Feb 20, 2008
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Beef Products Inc.

fast forward to the 35 min of this video

FIC Conference 2011: Employee Rights & the FSMA (Panel 2) - YouTube

And then you perpetuate the situation by saying that the meat industry fails to adapt to the market. It is ill-informed consumers like you that are making this seem unsafe, when it is actually much safer than the ground beef you get at your local butcher. I'm sure he didn't test for e-coli O157:H7 that could kill you while big meat industries do test for, and also in the process of making "pink slime" this e-coli is killed. But keep looking at it from your biased point of view.....That is what is killing the meat industry

This is where things go pear-shaped.

I have a personal stake in the prosperity of BPI as I'm living in the Siouxer and they employ a **** ton of people here. You reference this test for e-coli which BPI does perform except here's this whistle-blower dude claiming they're lying. Also, the guy says BPI is putting "Mr. Clean" in their product.

It's easy to say this guy is full of ****. But if he is why has BPI been dropped by;

McDonald's
Burger King
Taco Bell
Kroger's
Super Valu
Safeway
Hy-Vee
etc. etc.

If it's this obvious to CFers what's wrong with these companies? Why am I not seeing campaign style adds from BPI stating their case?
 

ISUAgronomist

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Nov 5, 2009
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On the farm, IA
It's easy to say this guy is full of ****. But if he is why has BPI been dropped by;

McDonald's
Burger King
Taco Bell
Kroger's
Super Valu
Safeway
Hy-Vee
etc. etc.

If it's this obvious to CFers what's wrong with these companies? Why am I not seeing campaign style adds from BPI stating their case?

PR backlash **** storm? Who wants to be known as the place that has the "pink ooze" you know that stuff causes female TMNTs right? BTW: Hy-Vee backtracked on dropping them I believe.