Private Schools in the State Tournament

[IcSyU]

I think that you look at some of the socioeconomic aspects of private schools, and you will find families that earn more money. That opens up a greater likelihood of extensive AAU involvement, or nicer training facilities, apparatuses at home, at school, etc.

Bingo! Am I the only one who gets tired of the accusations of recruiting in sports of private/parochial schools? I truly think most of it is a bunch of crap, but the socioeconomic (big word for a Hawk fan Jon :biggrin impact of attending one of those schools may explain some, if not most, of the deviation. We were good at sports where I went to school, but boy our recruiting coordinator should be fired since he didn't bring anyone into my class after 1st grade. Also, a high percentage of these schools are in larger cities, where they are pulling from a larger talent pool, and probably have more exposure, and more athletes focused on a single sport. These athletes more than likely have parents who are financially equipped to provide access to special camps, equipment, and other exposure that will help their child develop. Maybe its even because the majority of the time, these kids in private schools are playing sports together for life. A public school has a greater student turnover, which doesn't allow for as great of chemistry to build.

 

[tigershoops31]

So do we make Harlan move up tp 4A too since they dominate 3A?

They don't play by different rules than the rest of the 3A schools, so no.:no:

 

[jumbopackage]

Bingo! Am I the only one who gets tired of the accusations of recruiting in sports of private/parochial schools? I truly think most of it is a bunch of crap, but the socioeconomic (big word for a Hawk fan Jon :biggrin impact of attending one of those schools may explain some, if not most, of the deviation. We were good at sports where I went to school, but boy our recruiting coordinator should be fired since he didn't bring anyone into my class after 1st grade. Also, a high percentage of these schools are in larger cities, where they are pulling from a larger talent pool, and probably have more exposure, and more athletes focused on a single sport. These athletes more than likely have parents who are financially equipped to provide access to special camps, equipment, and other exposure that will help their child develop. Maybe its even because the majority of the time, these kids in private schools are playing sports together for life. A public school has a greater student turnover, which doesn't allow for as great of chemistry to build.

But wouldn't this basically give them an unfair advantage in athletics? I mean, if the point of having different classes is to ensure that schools are playing against talent levels that are similar (which similar enrollment numbers generally ensure), shouldn't private schools have to take a hit in terms of the class they play in since they have advantages that other schools don't?

I think it's questions like these that kept the two separate in Indiana. That, and that state is so crazy about basketball (I know several families that actually moved to get their kids in the right school districts based on what they thought of the class of 7th and 8th graders coming up through the system) that there would instantly be "basketball academies" popping up throughout the state that would dominate.

 

[wartknight]

What are the different rules? That a private school student needs to pay a lot of money where everyone else gets a free ride?

 

[tigershoops31]

What are the different rules? That a private school student needs to pay a lot of money where everyone else gets a free ride?

No, that they can legally recruit players from other schools and give them scholarships to attend their school. Not saying they always do, but they always CAN, and that is a majorly different rule than what the public schools (including Harlan) play with.

 

[IcSyU]

But wouldn't this basically give them an unfair advantage in athletics? I mean, if the point of having different classes is to ensure that schools are playing against talent levels that are similar (which similar enrollment numbers generally ensure), shouldn't private schools have to take a hit in terms of the class they play in since they have advantages that other schools don't?

I think it's questions like these that kept the two separate in Indiana. That, and that state is so crazy about basketball (I know several families that actually moved to get their kids in the right school districts based on what they thought of the class of 7th and 8th graders coming up through the system) that there would instantly be "basketball academies" popping up throughout the state that would dominate.

But they are pulling their athletes from the enrollments of the schools their size. I can think of a few schools that absolutely suck at sports and are private. I'm not seeing any true advantages. If people want to pay an excessive (in my opinion) amount of money to send their kids to a private school, let 'em. Public schools can benefit from open enrollment when it comes down to it, so I don't see that big of a difference.

The whole debate about conferences is another story. Our school played in a conference of schools that were bigger than us, but we didn't have a real way we could go. The small school conference around us would have left us being the biggest school by a good margin and hammering on our competition in most sports. The other few conferences around us left us as the smallest school, but we were competitive in baseball, and every once in awhile in random sports.

 

[cybsball20]

Ballard recruits as well, and they do it alot more blatently than any private schools I have heard of, giving parents jobs, etc...

 

[tigershoops31]

Ballard recruits as well, and they do it alot more blatently than any private schools I have heard of, giving parents jobs, etc...

Yes they do, but the difference is that it's a parent of a player and not a Ballard staff member...it ticks me off too but I don't think it is technically illegal unfortunately.

 

[LindenCy]

I like seeing all the schools play together. That is what makes it fun. In Illinois (at least for basketball), I don't think it hurts public schools too much, and in fact I think the public schools have better bball players in general.

 

[jumbopackage]

But they are pulling their athletes from the enrollments of the schools their size. I can think of a few schools that absolutely suck at sports and are private. I'm not seeing any true advantages. If people want to pay an excessive (in my opinion) amount of money to send their kids to a private school, let 'em. Public schools can benefit from open enrollment when it comes down to it, so I don't see that big of a difference.

The whole debate about conferences is another story. Our school played in a conference of schools that were bigger than us, but we didn't have a real way we could go. The small school conference around us would have left us being the biggest school by a good margin and hammering on our competition in most sports. The other few conferences around us left us as the smallest school, but we were competitive in baseball, and every once in awhile in random sports.

Yes, but it's been stated before, that those athletes have advantages that other athletes don't have. Essentially, a private school athlete is better than a public school athlete body for body based on some of the stuff put forth in the thread (not that they are intrinsically better, but they've been given more opportunities).

It's so complicated because there are so many private schools in Iowa, and their sizes are so disparate.

I, personally, would be a fan of creating a whole separate system for private/parochial schools for athletics, but that's just because I come from a state where that's how it works (and it works pretty well).

 

[jdoggivjc]

No, that they can legally recruit players from other schools and give them scholarships to attend their school. Not saying they always do, but they always CAN, and that is a majorly different rule than what the public schools (including Harlan) play with.

That happens a LOT at Assumption. The Catholics and the rich pay buku $$$ to get in. The athletes, if they're recruited, get in for free. There's no way the Davis family could afford to pay for Ricky to go to Assumption without the free ride HAD he chosen to bail out on North and go there.

 

[IcSyU]

Yes, but it's been stated before, that those athletes have advantages that other athletes don't have. Essentially, a private school athlete is better than a public school athlete body for body based on some of the stuff put forth in the thread (not that they are intrinsically better, but they've been given more opportunities).

It's so complicated because there are so many private schools in Iowa, and their sizes are so disparate.

I, personally, would be a fan of creating a whole separate system for private/parochial schools for athletics, but that's just because I come from a state where that's how it works (and it works pretty well).

There inlies my biggest problem with that. Matching Dowling Catholic-West Des Moines against Remsen-St. Mary's for example is a HUGE mismatch. The only thing Remsen-St. Mary's would stand a chance in beating them at would be underwater basket weaving, and I've heard Dowling has the top 3 ranked weavers in the state so Remsen's screwed.

 

[Incyte]

No, that they can legally recruit players from other schools and give them scholarships to attend their school. Not saying they always do, but they always CAN, and that is a majorly different rule than what the public schools (including Harlan) play with.

I think you are wrong about this. I don't think any rule allows private schools to recruit athletes let alone allows schools to give athletic scholarships.

Sounds to me that there is some major misinformation out there but I myself might be wrong.

 

[DaddyMac]

What are you going to do about the mega pubic schools/districts that have a single high school to have the largest possible student bodies to draw their teams from.

The WDM Valley's seem to suffer so much at the hands of the private schools. :skeptical:

Sounds like a bunch of people whining because they lost a game....

 

[trevn]

I just crunched some numbers for boys basketball (just from 2000-this year because I don't have that much time)

18% of state qualifiers for all classes were private

19% of the state champions were private

47% of those private school state qualifiers made the finals

Just for fun, I took a look at class 2A boys basketball this year, here's what I found...

13 out of 129 schools are private (about 10%)

8 of those 13 private schools made substate (about 61.5%)

4 of those 13 made state (about 30%)

And obviously 2 made the finals with one winning.

I don't have an opinion either way, but the numbers are fun to look at. It's obvious that 2A had a huge private school influence this year.

 

[jumbopackage]

There inlies my biggest problem with that. Matching Dowling Catholic-West Des Moines against Remsen-St. Mary's for example is a HUGE mismatch. The only thing Remsen-St. Mary's would stand a chance in beating them at would be underwater basket weaving, and I've heard Dowling has the top 3 ranked weavers in the state so Remsen's screwed.

Agreed, this is a problem, especially with the large schools as there are fewer of them.

From a public schools perspective, however, screw 'em. That's their problem to figure out :wink:

I don't know, nor do I really care all that much one way or the other, but I can certainly see the imbalance between private schools and public schools playing by different rules in the same system. It's essentially the same as telling Nebraska and Oklahoma they can pay their players but nobody else in the Big 12 can.

 

[IcSyU]

I just crunched some numbers for boys basketball (just from 2000-this year because I don't have that much time)

18% of state qualifiers for all classes were private

19% of the state champions were private

47% of those private school state qualifiers made the finals

Just for fun, I took a look at class 2A boys basketball this year, here's what I found...

13 out of 129 schools are private (about 10%)

8 of those 13 private schools made substate (about 61.5%)

4 of those 13 made state (about 30%)

And obviously 2 made the finals with one winning.

I don't have an opinion either way, but the numbers are fun to look at. It's obvious that 2A had a huge private school influence this year.

At some point when I have nothing better to do, I'm going to look at all sports, look at the number of individuals from public and private schools who excel, and the number of public and private teams who excel. My hypothesis is that private schools have a comparitive advantage in team sports, and public schools have a comparitive advantage when it comes to individual athletes. <sarcasm>From this, I will devise a formula that the state of Iowa should use for the Iowa BCS. Teams with like BCS numbers play against each other, and everyone is happy. It should create as much controversy as the current BCS so it won't hurt the reputation of the mother structure.</sarcasm>

 

[CYdTracked]

Well what I don't like is some of these private schools are in smaller classes. We had Des Moines Christian in our 1A conference when they had Sean Sonderlieter (pot smoker that eventually went to Iowa) and they man handled everyone in the conference. Our starting center would be about the same size as their starting PG. It puts the smallers schools at a big disadvantage considering these schools can basically recruit in a sense since they are private. It would almost make sense to put all the private schools in their own conference. You could still have your non-conference rivalry games like Valley and Dowling for example.

 

[c.y.c.l.o.n.e.s]

and I've heard Dowling has the top 3 ranked weavers in the state so Remsen's screwed.

Yeah, one transfered in from DM East, one from Norwalk and the other from Johnston.:biglaugh:

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Now, back to the debate...

 

[larry]

No, that they can legally recruit players from other schools and give them scholarships to attend their school. Not saying they always do, but they always CAN, and that is a majorly different rule than what the public schools (including Harlan) play with.

If the private school I went to gave scholarships to athletes, I think the teachers would have a fit. I don't know about other private schools in Iowa, but teacher pay at I. C. Regina is a couple thousand dollars behind public schools in Iowa City.

I haven't had much of anything to do with the school in the last 20 years, but when I was there we had a guy in our class who we were afraid would leave Regina to go to Iowa City High, who had a much better class than we did(we regularly lost by 20-30 points every year[our class, that is]). Thankfully, he stayed--City High stayed home and we upset the top seed in the tournament and ended with fourth place with a final record of 12-14.