I Say Keep PR!

[SeaClone]

That is definitely false.

Fair. That may have been overstating it a bit, but it is definitely not false in recent history - say the last 30 or so - when the lasndscape of college football has evolved a great deal. Look, I wish college football was like the NFL in that there is more parity, but it just isn't the case. Unless all of the stars align on a particular group of players, we are never going to be in the conversation for contending for a conference title with the current makeup of the conference. Patience.

 

[Thomasrickj]

That's great news! With less than 6,800 Cyclone Club donors listed for 2013-2014, I should be able to tailgate in the paved lots for sure next year!

I meant donors and ticket holders.

 

[awd4cy]

Fair. That may have been overstating it a bit, but it is definitely not false in recent history - say the last 30 or so - when the lasndscape of college football has evolved a great deal. Look, I wish college football was like the NFL in that there is more parity, but it just isn't the case. Unless all of the stars align on a particular group of players, we are never going to be in the conversation for contending for a conference title with the current makeup of the conference. Patience.

I also don't think McCarney was worse. I'm not sure he was better, but not worse either. Obviously Earl Bruce was the best in the last 40 years at least. I understand what you are saying, but I don't think patience is going to do much good in this situation. He's had plenty of time here and hasn't done much after 3 massively disappointing years in a row.

 

[SeaClone]

I also don't think McCarney was worse. I'm not sure he was better, but not worse either. Obviously Earl Bruce was the best in the last 40 years at least. I understand what you are saying, but I don't think patience is going to do much good in this situation. He's had plenty of time here and hasn't done much after 3 massively disappointing years in a row.

I guess I don't view the 2012 season as massively disapointing...we went to a bowl game. Sure, we lost, but a bowl game for ISU, at this stage, is not remotely close to massively disappointing. I would call it a successful season.

We'll have to agree to disagree regarding McCarney vs. Rhoads. The thing is, when you compare the two, the winning percentages are pretty similar. However:

1. McCarney coached in a different Big 12 that only had 8 in-conference games, and his best seasons occurred when he was able to avoid UT and OU. CPR has 9 conference games, and never gets to avoid the big dogs in the conference. That makes it difficult to compare the two records directly.

2. McCarney's teams never beat teams they weren't supposed to beat, and that's what really led to his downfall, IMO. I feel like the first ranked (at the time) team he ever beat was Nebraska in 2002 or 2003, and that team fell out of the rankings after that game and never returned. I can't verify it, but I do not think that McCarney ever beat a team that ended the season ranked except Iowa in 2001 or 2002....maybe I'm wrong on that, but it's what I recollect from my time at ISU. This is what separates the two in my opinion...CPR has had some historically big wins at ISU. When I sit down to watch an ISU game, there is hope that they can beat any team on a given Saturday, regardless of how improbable...I never had that sense with McCarney.

Look, I'm as disappointed as anyone that the past two seasons have been terrible, but to think you're gonna bring in another coach that is a better fit for ISU is extremely short-sighted. If we are in the same position next year at this time, then I think we can start having the discussion, but I think he has earned the right to see what happens next season.

 

[SimpsonCyclone]

I guess I don't view the 2012 season as massively disapointing...we went to a bowl game. Sure, we lost, but a bowl game for ISU, at this stage, is not remotely close to massively disappointing. I would call it a successful season.

We'll have to agree to disagree regarding McCarney vs. Rhoads. The thing is, when you compare the two, the winning percentages are pretty similar. However:

1. McCarney coached in a different Big 12 that only had 8 in-conference games, and his best seasons occurred when he was able to avoid UT and OU. CPR has 9 conference games, and never gets to avoid the big dogs in the conference. That makes it difficult to compare the two records directly.

2. McCarney's teams never beat teams they weren't supposed to beat, and that's what really led to his downfall, IMO. I feel like the first ranked (at the time) team he ever beat was Nebraska in 2002 or 2003, and that team fell out of the rankings after that game and never returned. I can't verify it, but I do not think that McCarney ever beat a team that ended the season ranked except Iowa in 2001 or 2002....maybe I'm wrong on that, but it's what I recollect from my time at ISU. This is what separates the two in my opinion...CPR has had some historically big wins at ISU. When I sit down to watch an ISU game, there is hope that they can beat any team on a given Saturday, regardless of how improbable...I never had that sense with McCarney.

Look, I'm as disappointed as anyone that the past two seasons have been terrible, but to think you're gonna bring in another coach that is a better fit for ISU is extremely short-sighted. If we are in the same position next year at this time, then I think we can start having the discussion, but I think he has earned the right to see what happens next season.

Just curious, why do you think he has earned the right?

 

[SeaClone]

Just curious, why do you think he has earned the right?

Because he has demonstrated a pattern of success (from an ISU perspective) in his first four seasons. If next year doesn't show any improvement, then we can start having the conversation because it would begin to demonstrate a different pattern. Every coach/program goes through down years. It's just that a down year for ISU is ~3 wins and a down year for an elite program is 7 or 8 wins.

 

[SimpsonCyclone]

Because he has demonstrated a pattern of success (from an ISU perspective) in his first four seasons. If next year doesn't show any improvement, then we can start having the conversation because it would begin to demonstrate a different pattern. Every coach/program goes through down years. It's just that a down year for ISU is ~3 wins and a down year for an elite program is 7 or 8 wins.

Fair enough, good answer.

Let me ask you this: Speaking of demonstrated patterns, do you see any coloration with the state of the program and the fact this has happen during Rhoads 5&6 years? Which is usually the years in a coaches tenure when you see him finally put his stamp on the program. Also, what are you actual expectations for next year?

 

[awd4cy]

Reason 2012 was a massive disappointment is that we had every opportunity to finally turn the corner and we failed. 2012 was a team that had a lot returning on both sides of the ball and was a real chance at actually winning more than 3 conference games (Rhoads high) and make a decent bowl.

First big opportunity we missed was in October when we played a great game against a highly ranked KSU team, and choked it away at the end. Then, at the end of the year, we had another opportunity we let slip away. We were hosting a struggling WVU team and there was a lot of evidence to support that if we won that game, we would likely be invited to the Holiday Bowl and play against a Pac 12 matchup. Instead we ended up falling and playing a Tulsa team we shouldn't have lost to, let alone get absolutely dominated by.

 

[cyatheart]

I don't see how there could be any question about it.

Pretty simply, instead of losing 3 games by 3 plays (Texas, K State and Tech) you win those three games, actually show up to play the FCS team and KU next year and are 5-5 this time next year with a bowl berth on the line going into the final weekend. This team is rotten but they are still 3 or 4 plays from 5 wins and playing for a bowl game at home this weekend. If that happens next year, people are kissing PR's *** and packing the stadium all year next year.

People are acting like every game is 56-10 like it was in the 80's. Some games still are close even despite some really embarrassing performances.

I am not defending PR, he dug his own grave with three really things. The Messingham hire is just inexcusable, the inability to get even an average QB after AA, and he didn't do anything to fix the cliff at linebacker than anyone with a printed our roster could have seen 3 years ago. They did nothing to fix that until it was way too late. But the reality is, no matter how much people want to refuse to face it, this team, for as pathetic as it is, could easily have 5 wins right now. And that, along with the money is why he is going to get another year.

 

[cyatheart]

Reason 2012 was a massive disappointment is that we had every opportunity to finally turn the corner and we failed. 2012 was a team that had a lot returning on both sides of the ball and was a real chance at actually winning more than 3 conference games (Rhoads high) and make a decent bowl.

First big opportunity we missed was in October when we played a great game against a highly ranked KSU team, and choked it away at the end. Then, at the end of the year, we had another opportunity we let slip away. We were hosting a struggling WVU team and there was a lot of evidence to support that if we won that game, we would likely be invited to the Holiday Bowl and play against a Pac 12 matchup. Instead we ended up falling and playing a Tulsa team we shouldn't have lost to, let alone get absolutely dominated by.

Lot of truth here. That team had 3 All Big 12 First Team players and won 3 games. Total waste.

 

[SeaClone]

Fair enough, good answer.

Let me ask you this: Speaking of demonstrated patterns, do you see any coloration with the state of the program and the fact this has happen during Rhoads 5&6 years? Which is usually the years in a coaches tenure when you see him finally put his stamp on the program. Also, what are you actual expectations for next year?

I really don't think it matters if it happened in years 5 and 6 or years 7 and 8. It is gonna happen at some point. The real question is whether he can recover/rebound. We lost 2 historically-great leaders at the linebacker position after 2012 that were the heart and soul of the team. The defenses with those two were not great, but they took advantage of opportunities. Losing those two left a huge player-oriented leadership gap that is not easily replaced, and no person has filled those shoes.

That said, I expect the offense to improve in a second year under Mangino, as he gets a better feel for his players and they get a better feel for him. The defense...who knows, but I hate to think it can get worse. Thus, I'm not sure I have expectations, but I need to see 5 or 6 wins to have a good feeling going forward.

 

[DesertClone1]

Well everybody's buddy Erik for one. Good old uni for another.

Read through some of those threads, especially the ones about him going to pitt. They are hysterical.

But it's all about donating to the program. That's why we suck. Am I doing this right?

 

[CapnCy]

Reason 2012 was a massive disappointment is that we had every opportunity to finally turn the corner and we failed. 2012 was a team that had a lot returning on both sides of the ball and was a real chance at actually winning more than 3 conference games (Rhoads high) and make a decent bowl.

First big opportunity we missed was in October when we played a great game against a highly ranked KSU team, and choked it away at the end. Then, at the end of the year, we had another opportunity we let slip away. We were hosting a struggling WVU team and there was a lot of evidence to support that if we won that game, we would likely be invited to the Holiday Bowl and play against a Pac 12 matchup. Instead we ended up falling and playing a Tulsa team we shouldn't have lost to, let alone get absolutely dominated by.

That 2012 KSU game...we lost that game right before the half. Same with Texas last year (hail mary) pre-half.

Like they say, close only counts in horseshoes, handgrenades, and slow dancing. Need to figure out how to win those games.

Assuming CPR is here next year, if I'm him I look at the off season as a time to change how things are done in the complex. Something has to change. Some coaching changes, but a lot of mental changes and ways we scout/do things.

 

[CycloneErik]

But it's all about donating to the program. That's why we suck. Am I doing this right?

Do you give enough to ask that question?

 

[peachy]

Pretty simply, instead of losing 3 games by 3 plays (Texas, K State and Tech) you win those three games, actually show up to play the FCS team and KU next year and are 5-5 this time next year with a bowl berth on the line going into the final weekend. This team is rotten but they are still 3 or 4 plays from 5 wins and playing for a bowl game at home this weekend. If that happens next year, people are kissing PR's *** and packing the stadium all year next year.

People are acting like every game is 56-10 like it was in the 80's. Some games still are close even despite some really embarrassing performances.

I am not defending PR, he dug his own grave with three really things. The Messingham hire is just inexcusable, the inability to get even an average QB after AA, and he didn't do anything to fix the cliff at linebacker than anyone with a printed our roster could have seen 3 years ago. They did nothing to fix that until it was way too late. But the reality is, no matter how much people want to refuse to face it, this team, for as pathetic as it is, could easily have 5 wins right now. And that, along with the money is why he is going to get another year.

Along that same line of thinking, this team could very easily be 0-10 right now. A couple of bounces either way, (especially against Iowa) could have been losses.

Also, there have been some games that would have been around 56-10, if not for the other team using their 2nd string. Both Baylor and OU (the 2 best teams we have played) were over by the 1st quarter. NDSU, OSU, and KU were over by the time the 4th quarter rolled around. We have had 1 lead at halftime this year. Just one. How confident are you for the last 2 games of the year, against good opponents?

I honestly believe there are posters here who would blindly support CPR even if we went winless. They would say he has "earned" it, or that we will be "better next year." I disagree with that statement considering we lose our best O lineman (Farniok), our best D lineman (Morrissey), and our best reciever (Bibbs). Do people honestly think we have more talent waiting to take their place? If so, please tell me who that talent is.

My question is how confident are you next year for our first game against UNI on Sept. 5th? Do you believe we have more talent they do? Are you confident our defense can stop them? Would you care to put a wager on that game?

So if we lose to a FCS school for the third year in a row, has CPR "earned" it?

 

[SeaClone]

Reason 2012 was a massive disappointment is that we had every opportunity to finally turn the corner and we failed. 2012 was a team that had a lot returning on both sides of the ball and was a real chance at actually winning more than 3 conference games (Rhoads high) and make a decent bowl.

First big opportunity we missed was in October when we played a great game against a highly ranked KSU team, and choked it away at the end. Then, at the end of the year, we had another opportunity we let slip away. We were hosting a struggling WVU team and there was a lot of evidence to support that if we won that game, we would likely be invited to the Holiday Bowl and play against a Pac 12 matchup. Instead we ended up falling and playing a Tulsa team we shouldn't have lost to, let alone get absolutely dominated by.

1. I will never say an ISU football team that went to a bowl game is a "massive" disappointment. Sure, you may have expected 1 or 2 more wins, unless you were unrealistic.
2. We didn't have a competent player at the most important position. Thus, if you think they had a capability to win more than 8 games that season, then your expectations were unrealistic. You mention that we lost two games we could have won...we also won a couple of games we could have lost. Overall, prior to the past two seasons, CPR has been above .500 on what I would call 50/50 games, which is a measure of a good coach. He's not gonna win them all, and it's unrealistic to expect such. Our QBs were awful in 2012. I get that falls on CPR, and that has probably been his biggest downfall at this point...finding a competent QB. That is not an easy task when you are having to gamble on 2 and 3 star QBs. Hopefully, Mangino can replicate his magic in that department...

 

[awd4cy]

Do you give enough to ask that question?

Oh Erik, you are just a funny guy (saving cylove the trouble of posting this)

 

[awd4cy]

1. I will never say an ISU football team that went to a bowl game is a "massive" disappointment. Sure, you may have expected 1 or 2 more wins, unless you were unrealistic.
2. We didn't have a competent player at the most important position. Thus, if you think they had a capability to win more than 8 games that season, then your expectations were unrealistic. You mention that we lost two games we could have won...we also won a couple of games we could have lost. Overall, prior to the past two seasons, CPR has been above .500 on what I would call 50/50 games, which is a measure of a good coach. He's not gonna win them all, and it's unrealistic to expect such. Our QBs were awful in 2012. I get that falls on CPR, and that has probably been his biggest downfall at this point...finding a competent QB. That is not an easy task when you are having to gamble on 2 and 3 star QBs. Hopefully, Mangino can replicate his magic in that department...

How is expecting better than 6-7 in 2012 unrealistic? We had all the pieces there to do it. I'm not so sure having Mess coach the QB's did jack for them in terms of development. There were tons and tons of missed opportunities. Well, maybe it all would have been more acceptable if we didn't take a total dump at the end of the year and get smashed by a Tulsa team we handled at the beginning of the year. I don't see how people don't see that as a disappointing year. Were you satisfied after the 2005 season under McCarney?

 

[SeaClone]

Along that same line of thinking, this team could very easily be 0-10 right now. A couple of bounces either way, (especially against Iowa) could have been losses.

Also, there have been some games that would have been around 56-10, if not for the other team using their 2nd string. Both Baylor and OU (the 2 best teams we have played) were over by the 1st quarter. NDSU, OSU, and KU were over by the time the 4th quarter rolled around. We have had 1 lead at halftime this year. Just one. How confident are you for the last 2 games of the year, against good opponents?

I honestly believe there are posters here who would blindly support CPR even if we went winless. They would say he has "earned" it, or that we will be "better next year." I disagree with that statement considering we lose our best O lineman (Farniok), our best D lineman (Morrissey), and our best reciever (Bibbs). Do people honestly think we have more talent waiting to take their place? If so, please tell me who that talent is.

My question is how confident are you next year for our first game against UNI on Sept. 5th? Do you believe we have more talent they do? Are you confident our defense can stop them? Would you care to put a wager on that game?

So if we lose to a FCS school for the third year in a row, has CPR "earned" it?

To answer your questions:

1. I'm not confident about the last two games, but I also never count CPR out. I wasn't confident when we beat OSU a couple of years ago, but it happened. I wasn't confident when we beat WVU last season, but we did. We've lost three games this year at the very end, and if we win a couple of those, we are having a different conversation. If you thought we weren't gonna struggle this year with a depleted defensive front and a new offense, then you weren't paying attention.

2. I don't blindly support CPR. I support him because he established a pattern of success in his first four years, and he has earned a right to see if he can work toward replicating the pattern next year. Do I think we have more talent at the center, DE, and TE position as compared with the players we are losing? Absolutely not. Do I think there is an opportunity to improve talent-wise at other positions to compensate at those positions? Absolutely. For example, we are getting Bundrage back at the WR position to add a dimension that we did not have this year. Lazard and Montgomery are a year older and more experienced. SR will have another year in the Mangino offense. The OL will have experienced members at other positions. The defensive line is the place where the most question marks exist. Thus, I think the offense will be better next year, and the defense will be about the same (terrible).

3. I am extremely confident going into the UNI game next year...they lose their best player at RB (easily the best offensive player in the state). I don't bet, but I think we win that game easily.

 

[SeaClone]

How is expecting better than 6-7 in 2012 unrealistic? We had all the pieces there to do it. I'm not so sure having Mess coach the QB's did jack for them in terms of development. There were tons and tons of missed opportunities. Well, maybe it all would have been more acceptable if we didn't take a total dump at the end of the year and get smashed by a Tulsa team we handled at the beginning of the year. I don't see how people don't see that as a disappointing year. Were you satisfied after the 2005 season under McCarney?

I think we're arguing semantics. There's a difference between satisfied, disappointed, and massively disappointed. You say it was a "massive" disappointment. I say any ISU team that goes to a bowl game is not a "massive" disappointment. I understand you may have been a little disappointed. I was also a little disappointed. But, I wouldn't call it anything close to a "massive" disappointment. Massive disappointment would have been winning 3 games that year.