To all the Prohm Haters...
- Thread starter ISUChippewa
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The preponderance of the evidence is way different now than a few months ago.
Predicting 15 of the last 3 recessions isn't actually a good track record.
They lost six of their last eight games last year. Had to win the big 12 tourney to get in the NCAA. Kudos for winning the tourney at Hilton South but the signs were there. Defense and rebounding have seemingly never been there. I have yet to be offered any evidence that he is anything more then a middle of the road coach.
This is preposterous.
They jumped a seeding line or two in KC, but they were in long before that.
You don't play yourself from below the line on the bubble to a #6 in a conference tournament.
And had the talent to win the conference outright last year to only finish 9-9. I would argue that last year's team was a bigger failure in coaching than this one.
Last sentence may be true but everything prior discounts your opinion. We were limping....really really bad into the tourney but we were in no matter what.
Stansbury, Chris Williams, and Hines have all routinely commented that in each of their own opinions Iowa State was the most talented team in the Big 12 last year. It’s great that CSP was able to bring that talent to Iowa State. A+ for the recruiting aspect of this discussion. But going 9-9 with that talent (malcontent, mismanaged, etc) is very middling.
When hearing Hines discuss the subject it is pretty well known that THT was likely a one and done by December and LW was never more than a 2 year player. The staff knew this and just missed on Grad transfers and Juco’s. It wasn’t like it blind-sided them.
That's the only thing that really gave me any hope was that he could recruit fairly well. But Wiggington coming off the bench, Conditt coming off the bench and four star Zion Griffin barely getting playing time makes me wonder if he really knows what to do with talent once he gets it.
So what makes you think he is anything more then an average coach.
I do not remember any of them saying that Iowa State was unequivocally the most talented team in the conference last year. "One of the," sure, but considering what TTU, KSU, and KU had last year, saying we were #1 with no substantial case for any of those other schools is probably pushing the point a little too far from reality.
This is a much fairer point. Something happened to the team last year around the end of January. They went from confident and scrappy to cocky and lazy. Prohm lost the locker room. I was proud the way they got it back for Kansas City, but I was not impressed with the program during that month or really that much since then.
I have never heard that they *knew* THT was gone after December.
With Wigginton, the writing was on the wall early, I agree.
I actually thought spring recruiting went okay this year. Bolton has been about as good as any of the other guys we went in on this year, Johnson has some upside, and KSU, UNLV, and some other good programs wanted Grill. That is an okay haul.
The issue this year is there was just too much to replace.
This brings me back to my point, though -- your post tries to balance that Prohm is a bad game day coach, but at least he can recruit, and then swing around to say that his recruiting sucks. The best evidence that he can build a competitive team for Iowa State is that he has done it. He's not going anywhere for 1.5 years, at least, so we might as well sit back and enjoy the attempt. If he fails, too, then we likely have a long rebuild (no transfer market shortcut this time) with a new regime that could fail miserably.
If you think a new coach will automatically succeed, let me introduce you to my wookie friend. Basketball can be bad *and* boring sometimes.
Been over this a thousand times --
Wigginton was well-cast as a bench gunner. Great shooter, bad PG and defender, played more minutes in the Big 12 than Horton-Tucker anyways.
Conditt probably could have/should have played more, but only marginally so. He is still inconsistent, but he has found another gear this season so far.
Zion has not shown anything this year to suggest that he should have been playing a ton more last season coming back from a difficult injury.
None of the changes you suggest above would have changed anything about how last year went and the problems with the roster construction right now.
I think he has had 1-2 very good to great recruiting classes. I don’t think that he has the ability to bring in 2-3 Top 100 recruits every year. When he has a great recruiting class like THT, Halliburton, Conditt he needs to win. Because he is going to have classes like 2019 which was never expected to be great and certainly has an uphill battle to be solid.
The key to next year is extremely simple but difficult. You need two top tier Grad transfers. (Think Baylor with Teague and Mitchell) Otherwise we are still a couple years away and the seat will get really hot.
Yeah I will concede they would of gotten in. But the committee is a what have you done for me lately group. Losing 6 of last 8 and bowing out of the big 12 tourney early would have had a huge impact on our seeding. This with a team that was talented enough to win the conference and was well on its way to doing so.
So your saying our defense and rebounding has been good under Prohm.
I mostly agree with this. I think the keys are really --
(1.) Replace Haliburton with a JUCO or graduate transfer. And by "replace," I do not mean we need to bring in an all-Big 12 guy. We just need somebody who can hold down the PG position, sort of like a Nick Weiler-Babb.
(2.) Bolton and Conditt need to be what amounts to stars.
(3.) Johnson needs to be good -- maybe not Shayok, but better than Nixon -- and 2-3 of the freshmen need to be contributors. Any development you get from Jackson, Grill, and Griffin to being Big 12 rotation guys really helps.
I know, a lot of ifs there, but the path is there.
If not, we are likely starting over.
"It's okay for ME to personally attack people I don't agree with!!!"
Wiggington - What coach doesn't start his best players.
Conditt - He always gives great effort and brings the energy level of the team up. He s kept us in the KSU game last year only to be pulled after the last timeout while he was hot. Prohm even said he should of got more playing time.
Zion - There were plenty of times to get Zion more game time last year and this year. So either Prohm's recruiting isn't as good as you say or he's not good at developing players or putting them in a position to succeed.
Lewis - Another four star recruit yet he can't get playing time. Recruiting miss or bad development or not knowing how to use him?
Again for the thousandth time. What makes you think Prohm is anything more then an average coach? And for the record I hope he turns things around.
Phil and Pop liked Robert Horry as a sixth man.
Phil didn't start Toni Kukoc a lot of the time.
Pop didn't start Manu a lot of the time.
Red Auerbach and John Havlicek invented the concept of a sixth man.
Minutes matter more than who starts, anyways.
Again, I agreed with you that Conditt should have played more, but do not act like he was somehow head-and-shoulders obviously better than Jacobson or Lard last season. He basically lost us the Texas game at home by missing late game free throws and perhaps lost us the Texas Tech game at home with a lazy inbound pass that was picked off followed by fouling a made shot, a five-point swing in like ten seconds.
Again, show me so numbers that show me that Zion was a better option that Shayok, Wigginton (who you are already complaining was not playing enough), or Horton-Tucker last season, particularly coming off that injury to his knee.
Lewis is a miss. Griffin is trending that way. I like stars but I like good players even more, and neither of those two has looked anything like a 4* rating at any point.
I never said I thought he was more than an average coach.
I just think the evidence you want to use against him is actually pretty poor evidence. There are much better complaints about him than yours.
Every thread in the basketball forum is the same. Felt like I have read the same thing multiple times.
If this year ends up like 2018, then fine put him on the hot seat. I still think it is ridiculous for a fan base to put the amount of pressure that we did on a young team in early December. It did nothing to help them out. I don't think it is a coincidence that these guys look better on the road than at home.
I get it people were upset that we let a conference title slip away with Kansas being down last year, but when did that become a fire-able offense?
Hoiberg's 2014 team, that some thought could win the national title, only had 2 more wins in the Big 12 than last year's team. That was with 1 extremely lucky win at home over OkSt and a much weaker Big 12.
Kenpom top 40 Big 12 opponents
2019 - 7 out of 9
2014 - 4 out of 9, plus TCU was out of the top 200!
I get it people were upset that we let a conference title slip away with Kansas being down last year, but when did that become a fire-able offense?
Hoiberg's 2014 team, that some thought could win the national title, only had 2 more wins in the Big 12 than last year's team. That was with 1 extremely lucky win at home over OkSt and a much weaker Big 12.
Kenpom top 40 Big 12 opponents
2019 - 7 out of 9
2014 - 4 out of 9, plus TCU was out of the top 200!
