Direct Quotes from JP and Brett Meyer about the Chaplian.
- Thread starter RedStorm
- Start date
The chaplain will be there as a resource. He won't be "promoting" his beliefs. I'd have no problem though with your scenerio if you hired an atheist counselor using private money as a resource for your atheist players. Although I'd like to hear the counseling sessions.
"Counselor, my parents are divorcing, my Grandfather just died, and I don't have any direction in my life."
"Don't worry because it doesn't matter. There is no God, and once you die there is nothing."
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To me the issue is that both Avalos (not Avila) and the Chaplain will be paid to discuss religion. Both have strong beliefs that happen to contradict each other. The Chaplain is actually hired to discuss religion and spiritual matters with the students while Avalos is supposed to teach something objectively. So why is it ok for Avalos to grandstand for his beliefs while many feel it would be wrong if the Chaplain did the same thing? I realize that the Chaplain should not be recruiting people to convert or anything like that, but are you saying that it would be wrong for the Chaplain to publicly make a stand for Christianity? If you are I guess I just can't see why.
The way in which they would be paid to discuss it is very different. Avalos is paid to teach about religion (This is what Jews believe about this; this is what this book of the bible originally said in Greek; these are the original documents that make up the bible; etc...) The chaplain would be paid to provide guidance from a religious perspective. (God would want you to do this; here's what the bible says about this; this is how these religious principles can be applied to your situation; etc...) There is a big difference between the two. One is compatible with the role of a state university while the other is not.
And there-in lies the difference.
With regards to his job duties, it is not OK for Avalos to grandstand for his beliefs (such as while teaching). Similarly it would be wrong for the Chaplain to do so in the course of his job duties (typically while interacting with and counseling the players).
Understandable. I don't purport to say that. Any faculty member can publicly make a stand for Christianity. When making a stand for Christianity is expected by virtue of the position you hold though that should raise red flags as to whether it should be University sponsored.
Why should you hear the counseling sessions? They're private, personal matters between the players and the counselor. What, you wouldn't believe that he didn't have his own agenda? Is that the hypocrisy bell I hear ringing?
Re: aclu
This sounds like a violation of your right to free speech. Perhaps you could compalin to the ACLU and they'll help you out. :wink0st:
This sounds like a violation of your right to free speech. Perhaps you could compalin to the ACLU and they'll help you out. :wink0st:
Is there a team hypnotist?
Mid-Iowa Newspapers - ACLU joins opposition to ISU chaplain
And is there is a team hypnotist, is it a privately funded position?
Besides--religious FREEDOM is constitutional. NOT separation of church and state (no such thing). Govt. is NOT to be coercive. There is NOT to be a state (national) religion. Govt. is NOT to be theocratic (I think that's the word).
Lunacy
ludicrous
ridiculous
absurd
hyperbolistic (OK--I sorta made that one up)
Has nobody heard of "being responsible for your own self"? Peer pressure (and other pressures--job--money) of all sorts push and pull on all of us from childhood. Stop blaming others for your own actions. Take responsibility. Stop trying to baby everyone. It's like the motorcycle helmet law (which I agree with)--but on some level it's still the govt. trying to be the conscience of the individual--or it's the govt. trying to stop people from doing stupid stuff. "Perceived expectation"--whatever--that just boils my blood. If the chaplain program turned out to be coercive or required or anything like that, I would hate it because coercion is NOT christian.
I'd like to start a new religion. Actually, it probably already exists--some type of univeralism or something. The absolute tenants of my religion would be obsessive tolerance and religious neutrality. Then this:
Ok--that last part was a little over the top. Sorry if I'm a little rambling--I have opinions but they're not necessarily well developed yet.
Mid-Iowa Newspapers - ACLU joins opposition to ISU chaplain
And is there is a team hypnotist, is it a privately funded position?
I think there's a percentage (and probably a high percentage) of people who use the separation-of-church-and-state thing as a pretext to be against religion (that is christianity--not the religion of atheism).
Besides--religious FREEDOM is constitutional. NOT separation of church and state (no such thing). Govt. is NOT to be coercive. There is NOT to be a state (national) religion. Govt. is NOT to be theocratic (I think that's the word).
Let's pull out my thesaurus . . .
Lunacy
ludicrous
ridiculous
absurd
hyperbolistic (OK--I sorta made that one up)
Has nobody heard of "being responsible for your own self"? Peer pressure (and other pressures--job--money) of all sorts push and pull on all of us from childhood. Stop blaming others for your own actions. Take responsibility. Stop trying to baby everyone. It's like the motorcycle helmet law (which I agree with)--but on some level it's still the govt. trying to be the conscience of the individual--or it's the govt. trying to stop people from doing stupid stuff. "Perceived expectation"--whatever--that just boils my blood. If the chaplain program turned out to be coercive or required or anything like that, I would hate it because coercion is NOT christian.
I'd like to start a new religion. Actually, it probably already exists--some type of univeralism or something. The absolute tenants of my religion would be obsessive tolerance and religious neutrality. Then this:
would be illegal because it's coercively promoting my religion.
Ok--that last part was a little over the top. Sorry if I'm a little rambling--I have opinions but they're not necessarily well developed yet.
Re: Is there a team hypnotist?
Anybody with half a brain could make an Establishment Clause argument that a chaplain who uses his position on a regents institution football team to proselytize and be absolutely correct.
Anybody with half a brain could make an Establishment Clause argument that a chaplain who uses his position on a regents institution football team to proselytize and be absolutely correct.
I get the feeling that the ACLU would bring a lawsuit if the chaplain thing went through. I think they would have a respectable shot at winning it too based on the Lemon precedent I posted a while back.
[Edit] Right after posting this I felt the need to expand. I think it would be rather obvious that if the chaplain was paid by the University that it would be unconstitutional. The private financing throws in an extra wrinkle. I still get the impression that the money will get channeled through the University though and that he will be on the University's payroll and be considered a University employee. Additionally, if he gets the use of office space and other support that would be a problem. Having a Christian chaplain can also easily be seen as endorsing that religion, and as having the purpose to do so.
The easy way to do this if they want this guy to provide services to the players is for the FCA to independently sponsor him and not have him be affiliated with the University. I would not see anything wrong with providing the players with a list of resources in the Ames area that are available to them, which could include and even recommend the chaplain guy. If he is really going to be nothing more than an available resource this would accomplish the same thing.
In reality though, I think the FCA will push through with this if the University allows it because they would like to get a court ruling in their favor. This would set a precedent that would allow teams to have chaplains and it would probably spread like wildfire because of its usefulness in recruiting. Contrary to popular belief, I don't know of any state sponsored schools that have a team chaplain.
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Among those who support staffing a full time chaplain on our football team, there appears to be a belief that the Fellowship of Christian Athletes is going to fund this position. I am not sure how well founded that belief is.
To the extent possible on the internet, I have researched the mission of the FCA and the services they provide. I have not been able to find anything that indicates they are in the business of providing financing for chaplains to anyone anywhere.
FCA.org - Home
It appears that the FCA may have a standing to advise who is selected as the chaplain, however, the basis to believe, in the absence of a written agreement, that the FCA is picking up the bill for the our chaplain is simply not credible.
