Most overrated player/coach?

[HFCS]

So in the 90's the two best point guards were Payton or Stockton...So yes he was without a doubt one of the 10 best players in the league during that stretch.

Without a doubt top ten of the 90s? Who is stretching now? How old are you? I watched a lot of NBA in the 90s. Off the top of my head:

Jordan
Hakeem
Malone
Thomas (won a championship in 90s)
Pippen
Stockton
Duncan (won a championship in 90s)
Barkley
Ewing (more finals in 90s than GP, would have been a lot more if not for MJ)
Miller (much more dangerous threat for Bulls than GP ever was)
David Robinson

Now a discussion can start but none of these guys are "without a doubt" top ten:
Clyde Drexler
Dominique Wilkens
Dennis Rodman (prolific per game rebounder of modern era, hardware)
Gary Payton
Alonzo Mourning
Mutumbo
Tim Hardaway
KJ
Jason Kidd

The Knicks, Pistons, Jazz and Pacers were battles for Chicago. Seattle was a speed bump, probably a less significant speed bump than Clyde's Portland team. Houston was for real but Hakeem's peak was during Jordan's two years away. As a Bulls fan when I think back to the toughest challenges, Gary Payton doesn't even come across my mind.

The fact that you said GP is without a doubt a top ten player of the 90s is exactly why I brought him up. The 90s was an age of shooting guards and dominant big men, he may have been the second or third best point of the 90s if you don't let me count 90-95 for some stupid reason, doesn't mean there aren't a handful of guys in the league right now I'd take over him in a split second.

Joakim Noah could be the best center in the league if Dwight Howard blows an ACL. Doesn't mean he's a legend, it means the league is low on marquee centers.

 

[FarminCy]

HESTER...HESTER...HESTER...HESTER. I was just a wee lad at the time but will never ever forget the chants of Hester in Hilton.

I was about 14 at the time and thought it was cool as hell when Hilton would break out in HEEEEESSTTEERRRRRRRRR HEEEEESSTTEERRRRRRRRR. The great thing about the Hester chants is that it was all of Hilton chanting it at times not just the student section. The funny thing was Johnny would just finally give in and be like "ah hell get your *** in there" and the place would go crazy. Not sure which game it was but he got a dunk and you would have thought ISU just beat KU on a buzzer beater 3 with how loud it got.

 

[woodie]

Since this is a pro sports board, I'll stick with that.

NBA-Phil Jackson. Even I could win at least 6 championships with Jordan and Bryant both in their primes.

NFL-Tony Romo. All hype; no return.

MLB-Derek Jeter. GREAT leader, but on ability alone, not that great.

gene chizzledick and any of the football coaches between earl bruce and dan mccarney
the wrestling coach who was b4 cael sanderson-he could ot beat anyone and the cyclone wrestling went to hell in a hand basket. he is sitting still at iowa state drawing a paycheck and they should fire the d23kh**d!!!!

 

[Neckbeard]

Without a doubt top ten of the 90s? Who is stretching now? How old are you? I watched a lot of NBA in the 90s. Off the top of my head:

Jordan
Hakeem
Malone
Thomas (won a championship in 90s)
Pippen
Stockton
Duncan (won a championship in 90s)
Barkley
Ewing (more finals in 90s than GP, would have been a lot more if not for MJ)
Miller (much more dangerous threat for Bulls than GP ever was)
David Robinson

Now a discussion can start but none of these guys are "without a doubt" top ten:
Clyde Drexler
Dominique Wilkens
Dennis Rodman (prolific per game rebounder of modern era, hardware)
Gary Payton
Alonzo Mourning
Mutumbo
Tim Hardaway
KJ
Jason Kidd

The Knicks, Pistons, Jazz and Pacers were battles for Chicago. Seattle was a speed bump, probably a less significant speed bump than Clyde's Portland team. Houston was for real but Hakeem's peak was during Jordan's two years away. As a Bulls fan when I think back to the toughest challenges, Gary Payton doesn't even come across my mind.

The fact that you said GP is without a doubt a top ten player of the 90s is exactly why I brought him up. The 90s was an age of shooting guards and dominant big men, he may have been the second or third best point of the 90s if you don't let me count 90-95 for some stupid reason, doesn't mean there aren't a handful of guys in the league right now I'd take over him in a split second.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Seriously on that one? The 1996 Finals went like this...

Game 1: 107-90 Bulls - Jordan scores 28 and shoots 50% from the field.
Game 2: 92-88 Bulls - Jordan 29 and 41%
Game 3: 108-86 Bulls - Jordan 36 and 48%

After Game 3, George Karl switches one Gary Payton on to Jordan. See where we are headed?

Game 4: 107-86 Sonics - Jordan 23 and 31%
Game 5: 89-78 Sonics - Jordan 26 and 50%
Game 6: 87-75 Bulls - Jordan 22 and 26% (5-19 FG)

If Karl starts the series with this alignment the Sonics could have won that series, so feel free to add him to this list. The only person to bother Jordan that much was Dumars back in the late '80's. That series was very competitive. The Bulls of those last three games of those Finals were completely different than the entire season. They were out of sorts. It was a lock down defensive effort that won the title in Game 6. If they didn't win it they go back to a crazy Seattle arena for Game 7. This is looked back at now as a foregone conclusion since the Bulls were a 72 win team and had a 3-0 lead.

Reggie Miller is the overrated one. Nobody got more mileage out of a few highlight shots than that guy. He was overexposed for the Knicks rivalry and for being a great soundbyte. Only 5 all-star appearances and no 1st or 2nd team all-NBA means that people in the NBA didn't think he was a Top 10 player in the 1990's. (GP had seven!) The guy was a great streak shooter than brass balls to take 'em when it counted. He's not a Top 10 guy.

Miller played the Bulls one time in the playoffs during the 1990's. Don't try and pump him up like he was a real foil for MJ, he wasn't. They took a tired Bulls team to a Game 7, that the Pacers should have won. Reggie's line? 22 points, none in the last 15:30 of the game. One shot in the last 15:30 and it was an airball. No one remembers this but they definitely remember the fall away three to win game 4.

If anyone fits the tag of underrated it's Payton. He played on the west coast where he was never on TV. He played an unsexy defensive style. They won 64 games in 1996 and nobody even noticed. Miller was more charismatic with more memorable moments but he's not the kind of player that Payton was.

(Did I mention that GP is the only PG in history(!) to win the NBA defensive player of the year award? His D wasn't good, it was historic. If you are putting Isiah's '90's output up against GP's you are flatly insane.)

 

[arganbright2]

Most overrated player/players---Any University of Florida QB of the past 15 years. Wuerffel, Palmer, Leak, Tebow---These guys are the reason why I can't/dont watch SEC football games.

Most Overrated Coach---Fred Hoiberg. Hate to say it but he hasn't coached a game (ever) and people are expecting all the talent he is bringing in to put us back in the dance.

 

[HFCS]

First of all, Game 7 would have been in Chicago. Not Seattle. When you have the best record in the history of pro basketball you get to have home court advantage in the finals.

And you think the 72-10 Bulls would have lost to the Sonics if GP had guarded Jordan more?? Pass the dope dude, that is some good stuff.

The Bulls won the first three games including one on the road (2 of them easily). Then Seattle won two home games, nice, but a playoff series doesn't get interesting without road wins. Bulls finished them off game six in Chicago without needing a seventh... that would have been in Chicago. No road wins for Sonics = not a threat.

You are really remembering the series with some anti-Bulls or pro-Sonics glasses. The two Utah series were the only Bulls finals that really had them pushed. Other than that their biggest challenges where in various Eastern Conf finals against Detroit/NY/Indy including the one Pacers series you brought up.

GP was a good officiating-aided defender, true. Harper, Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, 800 lb 18-foul-center-by-committee might have been the best defensive lineup in history in '96 though.

 

[drednot57]

Most overrated player/players---Any University of Florida QB of the past 15 years. Wuerffel, Palmer, Leak, Tebow---These guys are the reason why I can't/dont watch SEC football games.

Most Overrated Coach---Fred Hoiberg. Hate to say it but he hasn't coached a game (ever) and people are expecting all the talent he is bringing in to put us back in the dance.

Maybe CFH is overrated now, but if his recruits do what we believe they will do on the BB court, then he won't be overrated at all. That 2011 team has NCAA written all over it. Don't forget, CFH has Coach Bobby Lutz to lean on these next few years, so CFH will get a great education on how to be a head men's BB coach. I really do like the way CFH is rebuilding the MBB program at ISU.:smile:

 

[bowlfan912]

overrated coach- charlie weis
overrated players- carey price,chris bosh,aaron rodgers(til he actually wins a playoff game)

 

[cyclonenum1]

"Most" people have no freaking clue then. Unless Miles and LSU fall apart he is not going anywhere anytime soon. Yes there are times wen as an LSU fan he makes me want to pull my hair our, but he also is the winningest LSU HFC since the 1920s.

Unless LSU looses 5 or more games this year he is not going anywhere. Even with 5 losses he is likely very safe.

I would not be so sure of that.

Many in Tiger Stadium left last Saturday feeling as though LSU is "falling apart" this year. The game felt more like a loss than a win...and most think Les is one of the "luckiest" men walking the face of the earth.

Most love Les as a person but are not confident of his ability to manage a game and get the most out of the talent he has (another credit to him...recruiting quality players) on the roster. He has displayed ineptitude in crunch time with the handling of timeouts and the clock multiple times. He has some of the most talented skill guys in the country (Rueben Randle and Russell Shepard to name just two) yet he does not have a QB that can consistently get the ball in these guys' hands.

In the end, Les is at the mercy of two things out of his control...heightened expectations among the LSU faithful after winning 2 BCS Championships in the past decade and continual comparisons to ex-LSU coach Nick Saban who just happens to be coaching coaching a key rival in the SEC West to fantastic success at the present time.

LSU is now entering the "big boy" (Florida, Bama, Auburn) part of their SEC schedule (no more Miss St., Vandy, Tennessee)...Les' team had better produce or his seat is going to get much, much warmer than it already is...and make no mistake, it is already warm.

 

[cyrocksmypants]

I'm also going to throw in Mike Tomlin. Dude was handed a gift when Cowher retired. Great defense, solid offense and arguably the best front office in the league. Sure, he hasn't screwed it up, but I still think he gets way too much credit.

 

[jdoggivjc]

I'm also going to throw in Mike Tomlin. Dude was handed a gift when Cowher retired. Great defense, solid offense and arguably the best front office in the league. Sure, he hasn't screwed it up, but I still think he gets way too much credit.

One of the hardest things to do as a coach is to maintain status quo when handed a gift. And yet the Steelers haven't missed a beat in the transition from Cowher to Tomlin. For example, look at what happened in Tampa. Dungy built that team, was fired the year before they won the Super Bowl, and the Bucs eroded yearly following. That has not happened with the Steelers.

Until the day comes that Tomlin does drive the Ferrari into the telephone pole, it is absolutely unfair to label the guy "overrated".

 

[cyeah]

I would not be so sure of that.

Many in Tiger Stadium left last Saturday feeling as though LSU is "falling apart" this year. The game felt more like a loss than a win...and most think Les is one of the "luckiest" men walking the face of the earth.

Most love Les as a person but are not confident of his ability to manage a game and get the most out of the talent he has (another credit to him...recruiting quality players) on the roster. He has displayed ineptitude in crunch time with the handling of timeouts and the clock multiple times. He has some of the most talented skill guys in the country (Rueben Randle and Russell Shepard to name just two) yet he does not have a QB that can consistently get the ball in these guys' hands.

In the end, Les is at the mercy of two things out of his control...heightened expectations among the LSU faithful after winning 2 BCS Championships in the past decade and continual comparisons to ex-LSU coach Nick Saban who just happens to be coaching coaching a key rival in the SEC West to fantastic success at the present time.

LSU is now entering the "big boy" (Florida, Bama, Auburn) part of their SEC schedule (no more Miss St., Vandy, Tennessee)...Les' team had better produce or his seat is going to get much, much warmer than it already is...and make no mistake, it is already warm.

Crowton will be gone at the end of the year, Miles will be staying unless there is a total meltdown. There is ZERO chance fi for no other reason than the $7.5 million buyout to get rid of him. TAF (Tiger Booster Club) is about $300 million in debt and given the economic environment the buyout ain't happening. Period.

Most, if not all of the clock issues really begin and end at Crowton and he will be gone. There is actually talk of him being replaced during the season. Crowton tries to get too cute during crunch time with last second subs and what not.

Expectations are high on message boards and elsewhere but the only place his seat is warm is tiggerdroppings and other message boards.

 

[CyJack13]

Without a doubt top ten of the 90s? Who is stretching now? How old are you? I watched a lot of NBA in the 90s. Off the top of my head:

Jordan
Hakeem
Malone
Thomas (won a championship in 90s)
Pippen
Stockton
Duncan (won a championship in 90s)
Barkley
Ewing (more finals in 90s than GP, would have been a lot more if not for MJ)
Miller (much more dangerous threat for Bulls than GP ever was)
David Robinson

Now a discussion can start but none of these guys are "without a doubt" top ten:
Clyde Drexler
Dominique Wilkens
Dennis Rodman (prolific per game rebounder of modern era, hardware)
Gary Payton
Alonzo Mourning
Mutumbo
Tim Hardaway
KJ
Jason Kidd

The Knicks, Pistons, Jazz and Pacers were battles for Chicago. Seattle was a speed bump, probably a less significant speed bump than Clyde's Portland team. Houston was for real but Hakeem's peak was during Jordan's two years away. As a Bulls fan when I think back to the toughest challenges, Gary Payton doesn't even come across my mind.

The fact that you said GP is without a doubt a top ten player of the 90s is exactly why I brought him up. The 90s was an age of shooting guards and dominant big men, he may have been the second or third best point of the 90s if you don't let me count 90-95 for some stupid reason, doesn't mean there aren't a handful of guys in the league right now I'd take over him in a split second.

Joakim Noah could be the best center in the league if Dwight Howard blows an ACL. Doesn't mean he's a legend, it means the league is low on marquee centers.

First of all, All-NBA teams don't distinguish between PG and SG, they just select guards regardless of position. To be named to seven 1st or 2nd team All NBA during that time period pretty much means you were one of the 10 best players in that stretch.

The fact that you think Reggie Miller is better than Payton tells me all I need to know about your basketball knowledge. Isiah Thomas won a title in 1990 and never made an All NBA team in the 90's, Duncan came into the league in '98, he was not one of the 10 best players in the decade since he only played for two seasons during said decade.

 

[CyJack13]

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Seriously on that one? The 1996 Finals went like this...

Game 1: 107-90 Bulls - Jordan scores 28 and shoots 50% from the field.
Game 2: 92-88 Bulls - Jordan 29 and 41%
Game 3: 108-86 Bulls - Jordan 36 and 48%

After Game 3, George Karl switches one Gary Payton on to Jordan. See where we are headed?

Game 4: 107-86 Sonics - Jordan 23 and 31%
Game 5: 89-78 Sonics - Jordan 26 and 50%
Game 6: 87-75 Bulls - Jordan 22 and 26% (5-19 FG)

If Karl starts the series with this alignment the Sonics could have won that series, so feel free to add him to this list. The only person to bother Jordan that much was Dumars back in the late '80's. That series was very competitive. The Bulls of those last three games of those Finals were completely different than the entire season. They were out of sorts. It was a lock down defensive effort that won the title in Game 6. If they didn't win it they go back to a crazy Seattle arena for Game 7. This is looked back at now as a foregone conclusion since the Bulls were a 72 win team and had a 3-0 lead.

Reggie Miller is the overrated one. Nobody got more mileage out of a few highlight shots than that guy. He was overexposed for the Knicks rivalry and for being a great soundbyte. Only 5 all-star appearances and no 1st or 2nd team all-NBA means that people in the NBA didn't think he was a Top 10 player in the 1990's. (GP had seven!) The guy was a great streak shooter than brass balls to take 'em when it counted. He's not a Top 10 guy.

Miller played the Bulls one time in the playoffs during the 1990's. Don't try and pump him up like he was a real foil for MJ, he wasn't. They took a tired Bulls team to a Game 7, that the Pacers should have won. Reggie's line? 22 points, none in the last 15:30 of the game. One shot in the last 15:30 and it was an airball. No one remembers this but they definitely remember the fall away three to win game 4.

If anyone fits the tag of underrated it's Payton. He played on the west coast where he was never on TV. He played an unsexy defensive style. They won 64 games in 1996 and nobody even noticed. Miller was more charismatic with more memorable moments but he's not the kind of player that Payton was.

(Did I mention that GP is the only PG in history(!) to win the NBA defensive player of the year award? His D wasn't good, it was historic. If you are putting Isiah's '90's output up against GP's you are flatly insane.)

Great post, completely agree. The best defensive guard in the league who also gives you 20+ ppg, 5 boards and 7-8 assists is in no way overrated.

 

[nileo]

Since this is a pro sports board, I'll stick with that.

NBA-Phil Jackson. Even I could win at least 6 championships with Jordan and Bryant both in their primes.

NFL-Tony Romo. All hype; no return.

MLB-Derek Jeter. GREAT leader, but on ability alone, not that great.

In my opinion, Jeter is one of the greatest shortstops ever. Not just leadership, but stats.

 

[jdoggivjc]

First of all, All-NBA teams don't distinguish between PG and SG, they just select guards regardless of position. To be named to seven 1st or 2nd team All NBA during that time period pretty much means you were one of the 10 best players in that stretch.

The fact that you think Reggie Miller is better than Payton tells me all I need to know about your basketball knowledge. Isiah Thomas won a title in 1990 and never made an All NBA team in the 90's, Duncan came into the league in '98, he was not one of the 10 best players in the decade since he only played for two seasons during said decade.

If he watched a lot of the NBA in the 1990s there is no way that he would have failed to include Shaquille O'Neal on his list (and I'm assuming it's best players as he included players that were not guards on this list). The guy was the most dominant center in the 1990s and it wasn't even close. There's a reason why the "Hack-a-Shaq" was employed from his rookie season - sticking him on the free throw line was the only way you could hope to stop him. Yeah, he didn't win anything until he left for the Lakers in the late '90s, but he was the one and only reason why the Magic were even relevant at all in the '90s.

 

[cyrocksmypants]

If he watched a lot of the NBA in the 1990s there is no way that he would have failed to include Shaquille O'Neal on his list (and I'm assuming it's best players as he included players that were not guards on this list). The guy was the most dominant center in the 1990s and it wasn't even close. There's a reason why the "Hack-a-Shaq" was employed from his rookie season - sticking him on the free throw line was the only way you could hope to stop him. Yeah, he didn't win anything until he left for the Lakers in the late '90s, but he was the one and only reason why the Magic were even relevant at all in the '90s.

Whoa! Dennis "3-D" Scott and Nick Anderson would beg to differ!

Seriously, though, Penny Hardaway was a heck of a force to be dealt with for about five years or so in that stretch.

 

[jdoggivjc]

Great post, completely agree. The best defensive guard in the league who also gives you 20+ ppg, 5 boards and 7-8 assists is in no way overrated.

I'd say the reason that the Sonics were as good as they were in the '90s was BECAUSE of Payton. The talent around him was certainly questionable enough, certainly wasn't anywhere near the supporting cast that the Bulls or Jazz had. Sure Detlef Schrempf was decent, but Sean "Slam Dunk a Cheeseburger" Kemp? :laugh:

Without Payton, the Sonics aren't even a playoff team, much less fighting the best team ever to play in the NBA by definition tooth and nail for the NBA Title.

 

[drmwevr08]

Wow. I didnt think when I woke up today that I would get to read a thread with a heated debate about the merits of GP the Glove. How about some love for the rain man too I'll weigh in and say that without a rainmanesque(Hoffman this time not Kemp) memory of every series, or a hot google finger my first thought was that GP was definitely not over rated. I'd vote Pippen though. If he had to be the man for most of his career I think he'd not have sniffed the top 50 of all time list.

On Jeter, I think he gets too much attention as a Yankee but hard to call him over rated exactly. Top notch performance and a leader... I think I just puked in my mouth a little though.

 

[CyJack13]

I'd say the reason that the Sonics were as good as they were in the '90s was BECAUSE of Payton. The talent around him was certainly questionable enough, certainly wasn't anywhere near the supporting cast that the Bulls or Jazz had. Sure Detlef Schrempf was decent, but Sean "Slam Dunk a Cheeseburger" Kemp? :laugh:

Without Payton, the Sonics aren't even a playoff team, much less fighting the best team ever to play in the NBA by definition tooth and nail for the NBA Title.

Yeah without a doubt, and there were some very good Seattle teams. They won at least 55 games for six straight years, winning over 60 three times. They built that team around Payton. Lots of spot up shooters, Hersey Hawkins, Schrempf, Perkins and then Kemp rebounding and throwing down alley oops from GP.